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In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways tha

In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves. This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a personal insult to themselves. The PRC has influenced their people to regard any idea that goes against the PRC as racism towards chinese.

scarmig 7y ago
This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.
  - nailer 7y ago
    Anecdote (not data, not agreeing or disagreeing, just one point): I have good mainland Chinese friends who are members of the CCP. They don't believe in communism, they're members of the CCP because 'it looks good to have the CCP on your CV'. They know the government killed people in Tiananmen square. They do link the CCP to the fact they're richer than their parents (I see this as the US deciding to 'open China' back in the 70s). And they value stability more than the individual.
  - larnmar 7y ago
    Is that nationalism or just a background knowledge that your whole family could wind up in a prison camp if you say the wrong thing?
  - scarmig 7y ago
    Having dated several people from the mainland, this is not my experience. Which isn't to say we always agree on PRC politics, but the idea that they uncritically buy the Party line is simply wrong. If mainland Chinese people are mindless drones incapable of independent thought, why does the PRC need to invest billions of dollars every year in monitoring and policing what people say and think?
  - mywittyname 7y ago
    I do this when people from other nations unfairly criticize the USA, even when I agree with what they are saying. So as a word of advice, when this happens... > defend the PRC under any condition[...] even if they agree with what your saying. Then your argument likely heavy-handed or misses the nuance of the situation. Using the USA as an example, the impression a foreigner gets from looking at gun statistics is completely different from reality. So if a person from Europe starts to lecture you on guns in the USA, you're going to get a little defensive at their incorrect assumptions, even if you agree with their stance in general.
    - pertymcpert 7y ago
      Why? Why would you get defensive? It’s nothing personal against you. Argue the facts, don’t get emotional.
      - mywittyname 7y ago
        As I pointed out, the know a bunch of facts, but they don't understand the reality between those facts. Which is to say they really don't know what they are talking about. It's like hearing a person complain about a movie they've never seen, but they read the Wikipedia entry on it. They may understand the major plot lines, but you're not going to have an engaging discussion with them about the acting or cinematics.
    - PavlovsCat 7y ago
      > So if a person from Europe starts to lecture you on guns in the USA, you're going to get a little defensive at their incorrect assumptions, even if you agree with their stance in general. That is very much unlike, say, "defending all American gun laws to a T, without mentioning at all what you actually think, because they made you do it for being unfair or mistaken about something". And where that is the case, how you say things doesn't really matter, you won't get anyhwere either way. So you might as well be blunt, and if they want to correct something, let them. If they want to make excuses about being offended and not correct anything, it stands as is. I know, because I get that all the time, when Americans say "Germany doesn't have freedom of speech" or such, because glorifying Nazism is illegal. I don't start pretending Germany is perfect in response to that, I quote them some basics about freedom of speech, stuff about American law and whatnot, and try to explain how there is no "totally unrestricted" free speech anywhere there is a listener. Then they always (no exceptions so far, probably because intelligent Americans don't even say "there is no freedom of speech in Germany" to begin with) drift off into nonsense or fall silent, because their brain seems to be unable to process what I'm telling them.
hangonhn 7y ago
Come on. That's patently not true. Seriously. I'm born Chinese and my family is Chinese. We were never "trained". I'm highly critical of the Chinese government (though I left fairly young) as are some members of my family. Some of them were born and raised there. Come on. Stop it with the stereotypes. People are complicated and have multitudes. "People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government." No seriously no. We aren't robots nor idiots. "This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. " Even at the height of the Mao era there were still dissent even when it could cost you your life. "Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a personal insult to themselves." It depends though, doesn't it? Are the charges being leveled fair within the context they're being viewed? Not everything in Western media is completely fair, reliable, etc. I mean, just read the articles written by the media when it comes to technology. They miss a lot of the nuances. Is it really surprising that nationalism has an effect on people? You don't think Americans do that? Remember that fervent anti-French sentiment in some parts of the US when they criticized our invasion of Iraq? You don't think the fetishization of the military in US media is a form of propaganda? What about singing of the national anthem at NFL games? China does very similar things but perhaps more frequently. These pro-nationalist sentiments are fanned much more subtly than you've described it.
- frank_nitti 7y ago
  You don't really have to look much further than the US public opinion and media messaging on Israel to verify that there is a double standard in place here. Is criticizing a government's actions tantamount to racism against the people under that government's rule, or is it not? Phrase the question around China or Israel, and you will get two different responses from many people.
- tossAfterUsing 7y ago
  > (though I left fairly young) how is it reasonable to take your anecdote as a decent reference point for somebody who has grown up in china, speaking mandarin, and learning about the world through CCP-funded public schooling?
helen___keller 7y ago
> First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves Do people actually believe this? How could you possibly hope to put a billion people in such a tiny box?
- carapace 7y ago
  OP is being stridently racist. If trolling, 6/10, not bad. If earnest, hilarious and sad.

scarmig 7y ago

This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.

thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.
- nailer 7y ago
  Anecdote (not data, not agreeing or disagreeing, just one point): I have good mainland Chinese friends who are members of the CCP. They don't believe in communism, they're members of the CCP because 'it looks good to have the CCP on your CV'. They know the government killed people in Tiananmen square. They do link the CCP to the fact they're richer than their parents (I see this as the US deciding to 'open China' back in the 70s). And they value stability more than the individual.
- larnmar 7y ago
  Is that nationalism or just a background knowledge that your whole family could wind up in a prison camp if you say the wrong thing?
- scarmig 7y ago
  Having dated several people from the mainland, this is not my experience. Which isn't to say we always agree on PRC politics, but the idea that they uncritically buy the Party line is simply wrong. If mainland Chinese people are mindless drones incapable of independent thought, why does the PRC need to invest billions of dollars every year in monitoring and policing what people say and think?
- mywittyname 7y ago
  I do this when people from other nations unfairly criticize the USA, even when I agree with what they are saying. So as a word of advice, when this happens... > defend the PRC under any condition[...] even if they agree with what your saying. Then your argument likely heavy-handed or misses the nuance of the situation. Using the USA as an example, the impression a foreigner gets from looking at gun statistics is completely different from reality. So if a person from Europe starts to lecture you on guns in the USA, you're going to get a little defensive at their incorrect assumptions, even if you agree with their stance in general.
  - pertymcpert 7y ago
    Why? Why would you get defensive? It’s nothing personal against you. Argue the facts, don’t get emotional.
    - mywittyname 7y ago
      As I pointed out, the know a bunch of facts, but they don't understand the reality between those facts. Which is to say they really don't know what they are talking about. It's like hearing a person complain about a movie they've never seen, but they read the Wikipedia entry on it. They may understand the major plot lines, but you're not going to have an engaging discussion with them about the acting or cinematics.
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > So if a person from Europe starts to lecture you on guns in the USA, you're going to get a little defensive at their incorrect assumptions, even if you agree with their stance in general. That is very much unlike, say, "defending all American gun laws to a T, without mentioning at all what you actually think, because they made you do it for being unfair or mistaken about something". And where that is the case, how you say things doesn't really matter, you won't get anyhwere either way. So you might as well be blunt, and if they want to correct something, let them. If they want to make excuses about being offended and not correct anything, it stands as is. I know, because I get that all the time, when Americans say "Germany doesn't have freedom of speech" or such, because glorifying Nazism is illegal. I don't start pretending Germany is perfect in response to that, I quote them some basics about freedom of speech, stuff about American law and whatnot, and try to explain how there is no "totally unrestricted" free speech anywhere there is a listener. Then they always (no exceptions so far, probably because intelligent Americans don't even say "there is no freedom of speech in Germany" to begin with) drift off into nonsense or fall silent, because their brain seems to be unable to process what I'm telling them.

hangonhn 7y ago

Come on. That's patently not true. Seriously. I'm born Chinese and my family is Chinese. We were never "trained". I'm highly critical of the Chinese government (though I left fairly young) as are some members of my family. Some of them were born and raised there. Come on. Stop it with the stereotypes. People are complicated and have multitudes. "People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government." No seriously no. We aren't robots nor idiots. "This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. " Even at the height of the Mao era there were still dissent even when it could cost you your life. "Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a personal insult to themselves." It depends though, doesn't it? Are the charges being leveled fair within the context they're being viewed? Not everything in Western media is completely fair, reliable, etc. I mean, just read the articles written by the media when it comes to technology. They miss a lot of the nuances. Is it really surprising that nationalism has an effect on people? You don't think Americans do that? Remember that fervent anti-French sentiment in some parts of the US when they criticized our invasion of Iraq? You don't think the fetishization of the military in US media is a form of propaganda? What about singing of the national anthem at NFL games? China does very similar things but perhaps more frequently. These pro-nationalist sentiments are fanned much more subtly than you've described it.

frank_nitti 7y ago
You don't really have to look much further than the US public opinion and media messaging on Israel to verify that there is a double standard in place here. Is criticizing a government's actions tantamount to racism against the people under that government's rule, or is it not? Phrase the question around China or Israel, and you will get two different responses from many people.
tossAfterUsing 7y ago
> (though I left fairly young) how is it reasonable to take your anecdote as a decent reference point for somebody who has grown up in china, speaking mandarin, and learning about the world through CCP-funded public schooling?

helen___keller 7y ago

> First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves Do people actually believe this? How could you possibly hope to put a billion people in such a tiny box?

carapace 7y ago
OP is being stridently racist. If trolling, 6/10, not bad. If earnest, hilarious and sad.