4 ms·

> I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil

> I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil fantasy land where there's no need for compromise or understanding as long as you have a big gun and supernatural powers. One of the most popular entries in the Marvel universe was about a moral argument between Captain America and Iron Man regarding the appropriate use of power, and the limits of personal autonomy versus international law. Yes, it was dressed up in bright colors and had plenty of pew-pew-pew, but it was very much not a black and white story. To this day you can find people who agree with either side. > But there's precious little of that in the kind of simplistic, violent, nuance-free "win" that continues to be perpetuated in this material. Stephen Strange's first outing featured him having an emotional breakdown over causing the death of someone who was actively trying to kill him, and saw him save the world through cleverness, not violence. Are comic book movies the pinnacle of moral debate? Of course not. But they aren't always punch-hard-save-day simple, either.

Ensorceled 7y ago
Is there are second example? This is the first thing I thought of ... and then couldn't come up with more.
- aglavine 7y ago
  Spider Man Multiverse is a 21th century movie, if movies can be labeled that way. The fascination with gadgets; the assembled, diverse family; the revere/mocking of speed (this follows a secret American cinema tradition masterful described by Manny Farber).
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Captain America: The Winter Soldier made a strong point about the issues of surveillance and trading freedom for security, where even the good guys (SHIELD) didn't realize until too late that they were doing the work of literal nazis. There was lots of boom boom in it, but it wasn't a dumb movie. Arguably, Iron Man 1 was quite explicit about the issues of war, terrorism, and sales of weapons; it had a quite dark undertone for a MCU movie.
- dx87 7y ago
  Black Panther was like the civil rights movement, with one faction advocating for peace, and the other component advocating violence against their oppressors.
  - munificent 7y ago
    The hero of the movie wins against both M'Baku and Killmonger by being the most physically powerful and violent. Strip away the civil rights veneer, and the moral lesson of the story is still that the punching-est man is the best man.
    - thomascgalvin 7y ago
      The moral lesson was that the best man had to become the punching-est man, in order to thwart the power of someone who wanted to use his might to conquer. And, moreover, that an incredibly rich nation's resources should be shared with the world at large, in order to make the world as a whole a better place.
- thomascgalvin 7y ago
  > Is there are second example? Captain Marvel ends with a fight, but the entire point of the movie is that the people we are taught to fear as an insidious infiltration into our society are, in fact, only trying to make a home for themselves, and lash out only when terrorized by an imperial power. The hero of that story is a soldier who realizes she has been used as a weapon against innocents, and who then sets out to make amends. Thor is about someone with the powers of a god and the simplistic morality of a child, and his entire first movie is about learning restraint and the importance of peace. Iron Man is about an arms dealer who realizes, quote, that he has more to offer the world than things that blow up. This isn't the best example, because he's still better known for making things blow up, but he also becomes the world leader in clean energy. Iron Man also creates a rampant AI and learns that even though he's a genius, he can't build a suit of armor around the world, especially without the world's permission. Black Panther has some reasonably complicated things to say about imperialism and the White Man's Burden. And, I guess, the stupidity of placing the world's most advanced technology and weaponry into the hands of a man who can win a fistfight about it.
dawg- 7y ago
Some Marvel movies have more meat to them than others. It's important to remember that there are a lot of different writers working on these movies, they are not a monolith. Some of them are good at fitting important, thought-provoking themes into the framework of Disney's aesthetic requirements, and others are not. Spiderman: Far From Home is a great example. The movie deals with the legacy of technology as Mysterio re-appropriates Tony Stark's drone network to create a virtual reality propaganda monster. What once protected and improved the world now threatens it when it falls into the wrong hands. What does this say about things like mass data collection? Nuclear weapons? Virtual reality? The infrastructure of technology stays in place after its well-intentioned creators are gone. How will we as a species deal with that legacy in the coming decades and centuries? It also deals with the theme of 21st century propaganda in our "post-truth society". Mysterio doesn't need to have actual super powers, he just needs to make people believe he does. He takes on the role of film-director-as-superhuman, who through visual trickery controls the perception and beliefs of millions. Yeah it was a 2 hour escape in some aspects and I got to watch Tom Holland kick ass. But the movie also left me thinking about some pretty heavy and challenging stuff.
smacktoward 7y ago
> One of the most popular entries in the Marvel universe was about a moral argument between Captain America and Iron Man regarding the appropriate use of power, and the limits of personal autonomy versus international law. An extremely shallow moral argument on those subjects. They weren't really explored much, beyond Captain America saying "I think X" and Iron Man saying "No, I think Y." (And then of course the argument was resolved not by having these two characters actually argue their points, but by having them punch each other a lot.) > To this day you can find people who agree with either side. My sense of this is that you don't so much find people who agree with a particular side as you find people who identify with a character aligned with a particular side. The agreement isn't grounded in a philosophical position, it's grounded in whether you're a fan of Captain America or Iron Man. Which is exactly the kind of downside to superhero storytelling that Moore is on about. When the only solution available for any problem in a story is to find the right übermensch to throw at it, people are naturally going to start sorting themselves according to which übermensch they think is the ideal übermensch.

Ensorceled 7y ago

Is there are second example? This is the first thing I thought of ... and then couldn't come up with more.

aglavine 7y ago
Spider Man Multiverse is a 21th century movie, if movies can be labeled that way. The fascination with gadgets; the assembled, diverse family; the revere/mocking of speed (this follows a secret American cinema tradition masterful described by Manny Farber).
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Captain America: The Winter Soldier made a strong point about the issues of surveillance and trading freedom for security, where even the good guys (SHIELD) didn't realize until too late that they were doing the work of literal nazis. There was lots of boom boom in it, but it wasn't a dumb movie. Arguably, Iron Man 1 was quite explicit about the issues of war, terrorism, and sales of weapons; it had a quite dark undertone for a MCU movie.
dx87 7y ago
Black Panther was like the civil rights movement, with one faction advocating for peace, and the other component advocating violence against their oppressors.
- munificent 7y ago
  The hero of the movie wins against both M'Baku and Killmonger by being the most physically powerful and violent. Strip away the civil rights veneer, and the moral lesson of the story is still that the punching-est man is the best man.
  - thomascgalvin 7y ago
    The moral lesson was that the best man had to become the punching-est man, in order to thwart the power of someone who wanted to use his might to conquer. And, moreover, that an incredibly rich nation's resources should be shared with the world at large, in order to make the world as a whole a better place.
thomascgalvin 7y ago
> Is there are second example? Captain Marvel ends with a fight, but the entire point of the movie is that the people we are taught to fear as an insidious infiltration into our society are, in fact, only trying to make a home for themselves, and lash out only when terrorized by an imperial power. The hero of that story is a soldier who realizes she has been used as a weapon against innocents, and who then sets out to make amends. Thor is about someone with the powers of a god and the simplistic morality of a child, and his entire first movie is about learning restraint and the importance of peace. Iron Man is about an arms dealer who realizes, quote, that he has more to offer the world than things that blow up. This isn't the best example, because he's still better known for making things blow up, but he also becomes the world leader in clean energy. Iron Man also creates a rampant AI and learns that even though he's a genius, he can't build a suit of armor around the world, especially without the world's permission. Black Panther has some reasonably complicated things to say about imperialism and the White Man's Burden. And, I guess, the stupidity of placing the world's most advanced technology and weaponry into the hands of a man who can win a fistfight about it.

dawg- 7y ago

Some Marvel movies have more meat to them than others. It's important to remember that there are a lot of different writers working on these movies, they are not a monolith. Some of them are good at fitting important, thought-provoking themes into the framework of Disney's aesthetic requirements, and others are not. Spiderman: Far From Home is a great example. The movie deals with the legacy of technology as Mysterio re-appropriates Tony Stark's drone network to create a virtual reality propaganda monster. What once protected and improved the world now threatens it when it falls into the wrong hands. What does this say about things like mass data collection? Nuclear weapons? Virtual reality? The infrastructure of technology stays in place after its well-intentioned creators are gone. How will we as a species deal with that legacy in the coming decades and centuries? It also deals with the theme of 21st century propaganda in our "post-truth society". Mysterio doesn't need to have actual super powers, he just needs to make people believe he does. He takes on the role of film-director-as-superhuman, who through visual trickery controls the perception and beliefs of millions. Yeah it was a 2 hour escape in some aspects and I got to watch Tom Holland kick ass. But the movie also left me thinking about some pretty heavy and challenging stuff.

smacktoward 7y ago

> One of the most popular entries in the Marvel universe was about a moral argument between Captain America and Iron Man regarding the appropriate use of power, and the limits of personal autonomy versus international law. An extremely shallow moral argument on those subjects. They weren't really explored much, beyond Captain America saying "I think X" and Iron Man saying "No, I think Y." (And then of course the argument was resolved not by having these two characters actually argue their points, but by having them punch each other a lot.) > To this day you can find people who agree with either side. My sense of this is that you don't so much find people who agree with a particular side as you find people who identify with a character aligned with a particular side. The agreement isn't grounded in a philosophical position, it's grounded in whether you're a fan of Captain America or Iron Man. Which is exactly the kind of downside to superhero storytelling that Moore is on about. When the only solution available for any problem in a story is to find the right übermensch to throw at it, people are naturally going to start sorting themselves according to which übermensch they think is the ideal übermensch.