6 ms·

I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil fa

I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil fantasy land where there's no need for compromise or understanding as long as you have a big gun and supernatural powers. Sometimes a hero is someone who unites, explains, or educates. But there's precious little of that in the kind of simplistic, violent, nuance-free "win" that continues to be perpetuated in this material. And that is to the detriment of society's ability to reason.

alphakappa 7y ago
There’s no reason why escapism should only be for kids. There’s plenty of ‘deep’ art in this world, and fantasy escapism isn’t preventing that from existing.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  "There’s plenty of ‘deep’ art in this world, and fantasy escapism isn’t preventing that from existing." But even you quote 'deep' as if it isn't deep at all. By this rhetoric there isnt any deep art, whatsoever, in existence. And I think that bolsters the point that we need less escapism and that actual real critical thought needs to be applied.
  - eli_gottlieb 7y ago
    Go read the Iliad, the Odyssey, and even the Book of Exodus and tell me it wasn't comic-book movie fare for ancient Greeks and Hebrews.
- _hardwaregeek 7y ago
  It kinda is if you think about the economics of the box office. Scorsese makes this point in depth with his NYT Op-Ed. Basically studios have become preoccupied with making purely franchise tentpoles and not funding lower budget creative movies. Now the common response to that studios are just giving the people what they want. But A. people will tend to like what you put in front of them and B. that doesn't mean studios should starve creative, new ideas. It's a sign of the times that someone like Martin Scorsese has trouble getting money, that a film with Robert De Niro, Al Pacino and Joe Pesci has to be made with Netflix. Also, studios seem to forget that these franchises started as risks themselves. Iron Man was a huge risk. Star Wars was massively precarious. If executives hadn't taken the original risk, these franchises wouldn't be the cash cows they are. Escapism isn't necessarily bad but it's a little noticeable how much escapism is being sold to us at the detriment to real, innovative, intelligent art.
  - IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
    People vote with their attendance and requisite dollars. Terminator Dark Fate and Charlie's Angels have bombed at the box office. Studios are about making money. They always have been and always will be. I would suspect Mr Scorcese would find the same thing in Bollywood as well. All genres go through cycles in film in terms of popularity. Marvel will have a down cycle at some point. Disney movies lost their way when Disney himself died. It takes leadership, a great script,great acting and creativity, to build successful movies that can grow into franchises. or be even something people enjoy watching more that once on it's own.
    - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
      > And if you’re going to tell me that it’s simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, I’m going to disagree. It’s a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course they’re going to want more of that one kind of thing. From the Scorsese Op-Ed. I did explain in my previous comment that "voting with their attendance" is a faulty excuse, because it's a self perpetuating cycle. Also, if studio execs just blindly gave people more of the same franchises without trying new ideas, we wouldn't have Marvel or Star Wars. Executives need to take creative risk if they want to receive financial gain. The idea that Marvel is just having a genre moment doesn't really follow. We've never seen a genre that subsumes all genres, that dominates the box office in such a relentless manner. Has there ever been a time where horror movies were playing at every movie theater, where everybody talked about horror movies, where practically every actor under the sun had starred in a horror movie?
      - IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
        Marvel must be doing something right, because their last film made over 2 Billion dollars. Marvel has found a formula that works and allows them to expand their set of characters and put them in movies of their own. They have used a diverse set of directors and actors to work on their films. And apparently, people like them. Some don't. Iron Man was the risk. Marvel's approach of a 15 year cycle of building and interlinking was what worked. For Warner/DC, they tried the same thing for DC characters and could not pull it off. Nor could Universal with the attempt to force a Monster Cinematic Universe. Their Tom Cruise Mummy movie failed. Marvel is getting beat up here, because they are so successful. DC gets beat up, because they have not figured out how to tonally present their movies in a way that can build a franchise. As to the size of the budgets, they are large because of the CGI that makes the characteristics of the superheros seem more real. The first modern Superman movie's tag line was: You will believe a man can fly". The Hope and Crosby Road Trip movies, the Abbot and Costello franchises or the Jerry Lewis Dean Martin movies were all franchises as well. Hell, Rin Tin Tin was a franchise. We've been here before and will be there again. Studios will milk what works for them until it no longer does, and the other studios will copy the genre and try to get in on the money there. Or they just reboot something that doesn't have a new story to tell, or has a weak cast or uninteresting story line. That is the business. You weren't forced to go and neither was anyone else. As for Scorcesse, he is reviled within the Academy community for some of his films.
acollins1331 7y ago
Sure, you shouldn't "always" escape like you say, but I don't think the people the author is criticizing are watching marvel movies 12 hours a day.
- vharuck 7y ago
  Moore seems to be implying they escape in their free time instead of working to improve the world. So they gripe, feel powerless to do anything, and comfort themselves with movies and comics where powerful people like them improve the world.
- Zelphyr 7y ago
  Reading between the lines of what Moore said I don't see the problem as simply watching superhero movies. It's watching too much TV at all. It's spending too much time on Facebook. It's buying a new [insert product here] that we can't afford because the short-term hit makes us feel better. It's drinking a little more alcohol than we know we should. It's telling our primary car doc that we want that pill because it's too scary and expensive to visit a therapist. My point is that there are more ways to escape now than there probably has ever been. Most of them in isolation and used moderately are harmless but far too may people don't use them in isolation or in moderation.
  - altoidaltoid 7y ago
    Neil Postman is over this way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
- anotherman554 7y ago
  Moore would prefer that there be "better" art people are enjoying instead of the Marvel and DC superhero movies. But there is no specific barometer of "better" for him, he suggests something created in the 21st century would be "better" rather than an adaptation, but I don't think he really has a workable definition of "better".
Zelphyr 7y ago
I agree and I think we've lost the ability to be our own heroes. We're all walking around with massive anxieties and not facing them only makes us more anxious. And don't get me wrong; there's a place for escapism. Everybody needs and deserves a break every now and then. But what I think most people don't realize is that facing those anxieties and fears is far more rewarding and enriching than watching a movie for 90 minutes. It's ironic that we choose to watch something impossible like a guy who can shoot rays out of his eyes because we think overcoming our own fears is impossible.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > It's ironic that we choose to watch something impossible like a guy who can shoot rays out of his eyes because we think overcoming our own fears is impossible. But... we don't. I watch him shoot rays out of his eyes because it's fun and relaxing. I'm literally going into surgery tomorrow so they can cut out part the bone behind my eye, by sticking a knife up my nose, so that I don't go blind. I'm anxious above that but I'm doing it because it needs to be done. You know what I'm not going to do tonight? Try to face my own fears. I'm going to watch TV with my wife and relax. Because not every moment of my time needs to be facing my fears. Down time is _good_ for you.
  - Zelphyr 7y ago
    What would happen if you spent some time paying attention to that anxiety? Noticing where you feel it in your body? Is it in your chest and shoulders like it usually is for me? Where in your chest and shoulders? What thoughts do you notice you have around the anxiety? And then I'm curious how you'd feel an hour after that exercise? A few hours? Yes, down time is good for you. That's why I said "Everybody deserves a break sometimes." But most people don't take a break sometimes. They take a break most of the time. Our minds and bodies have something to tell us and nothing good comes from not listening. In other words; paying attention to that is a form of down time. A very very useful one. I truly wish you the best with your surgery, though. Ask the doc to fix it so you can shoot rays out of that eye while he's in there. ;)
  - wutbrodo 7y ago
thomascgalvin 7y ago
> I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil fantasy land where there's no need for compromise or understanding as long as you have a big gun and supernatural powers. One of the most popular entries in the Marvel universe was about a moral argument between Captain America and Iron Man regarding the appropriate use of power, and the limits of personal autonomy versus international law. Yes, it was dressed up in bright colors and had plenty of pew-pew-pew, but it was very much not a black and white story. To this day you can find people who agree with either side. > But there's precious little of that in the kind of simplistic, violent, nuance-free "win" that continues to be perpetuated in this material. Stephen Strange's first outing featured him having an emotional breakdown over causing the death of someone who was actively trying to kill him, and saw him save the world through cleverness, not violence. Are comic book movies the pinnacle of moral debate? Of course not. But they aren't always punch-hard-save-day simple, either.
- Ensorceled 7y ago
  Is there are second example? This is the first thing I thought of ... and then couldn't come up with more.
  - aglavine 7y ago
    Spider Man Multiverse is a 21th century movie, if movies can be labeled that way. The fascination with gadgets; the assembled, diverse family; the revere/mocking of speed (this follows a secret American cinema tradition masterful described by Manny Farber).
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Captain America: The Winter Soldier made a strong point about the issues of surveillance and trading freedom for security, where even the good guys (SHIELD) didn't realize until too late that they were doing the work of literal nazis. There was lots of boom boom in it, but it wasn't a dumb movie. Arguably, Iron Man 1 was quite explicit about the issues of war, terrorism, and sales of weapons; it had a quite dark undertone for a MCU movie.
LanceH 7y ago
How about the Bond style spy movies. The movies where everything gets better by breaking out in song and dance. The crime dramas where the nice, hard working lawyer gets someone else to confess on the stand while defending his client. Even "The Godfather" is escapist in the sense that they really are just about their families in the end and aren't really that bad, except to the other gangsters who are worse. They're protecting us. Same deal for sports. What difference does it make if green team beats yellow team this week? I think this is really another case of looking down on comics as being "for kids". Really, if people are going to take down anything purely for being escapist, musicals should be the first to go :)
- goto11 7y ago
  Well this is Alan Moore, the author of such comics as From Hell and Watchmen, so I don't think you can fairly accuse him of looking down on comics as being for kids. And why do you think he should care about musicals more than his own medium of choice?
- licebmi__at__ 7y ago
  >Even "The Godfather" is escapist in the sense that they really are just about their families in the end and aren't really that bad, except to the other gangsters who are worse. They're protecting us. This is a pretty weird and shallow interpretation of the movie. I don't dismiss stuff for being "for kids", I love manga and cartoons, hell just this weekend I binged "green eggs and ham", still I'm perfectly aware that almost all of this media has a bad execution, shallow themes and well it is for kids, and if I get a discussion with my friends (specifically about superhero movies) is about how blatant the topics and absurd the topics are.
- iamaelephant 7y ago
  > Same deal for sports. What difference does it make if green team beats yellow team this week? You know..... you know sports are real life right? Like, there is an actual competition happening, it's not pre-scripted. Sports fans like sports because they like watching talented athletes competing with one another.
Reedx 7y ago
This is one of the reasons I love Hayao Miyazaki's movies. The characters are nuanced. Which is both more realistic and far more constructive. Take Princess Mononoke for example. There's the antagonist, Lady Eboshi, who runs a mining town and is destroying nature. Generally this would be the complete character. That's the villain, easy to hate. Must be vanquished. End of story. But then you learn she's empowering women and taking care of lepers, the most vulnerable. Her workers and the townspeople adore her. Now you have mixed feelings. And the answer goes from "destroy" to "cooperate" and seeking a peaceful, win-win solution.
- rpmisms 7y ago
  Bringing up Studio Ghibli in a conversation about good cinema is as close to cheating as you can get.
  - pvaldes 7y ago
    I see your Ghibli and raise you a Woolly Aardman Farmageddon is pure gold
    - rpmisms 7y ago
      Goddamn it, you have me beat.
IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
So as adults we must reject the power of myth?
- goatlover 7y ago
  Only if it gets too popular, apparently.
Grue3 7y ago
Ironically, the best superhero story going right now, the one that truly explores the possibilities and the depths of the medium, is a cartoon for kids, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power.

alphakappa 7y ago

There’s no reason why escapism should only be for kids. There’s plenty of ‘deep’ art in this world, and fantasy escapism isn’t preventing that from existing.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
"There’s plenty of ‘deep’ art in this world, and fantasy escapism isn’t preventing that from existing." But even you quote 'deep' as if it isn't deep at all. By this rhetoric there isnt any deep art, whatsoever, in existence. And I think that bolsters the point that we need less escapism and that actual real critical thought needs to be applied.
- eli_gottlieb 7y ago
  Go read the Iliad, the Odyssey, and even the Book of Exodus and tell me it wasn't comic-book movie fare for ancient Greeks and Hebrews.
_hardwaregeek 7y ago
It kinda is if you think about the economics of the box office. Scorsese makes this point in depth with his NYT Op-Ed. Basically studios have become preoccupied with making purely franchise tentpoles and not funding lower budget creative movies. Now the common response to that studios are just giving the people what they want. But A. people will tend to like what you put in front of them and B. that doesn't mean studios should starve creative, new ideas. It's a sign of the times that someone like Martin Scorsese has trouble getting money, that a film with Robert De Niro, Al Pacino and Joe Pesci has to be made with Netflix. Also, studios seem to forget that these franchises started as risks themselves. Iron Man was a huge risk. Star Wars was massively precarious. If executives hadn't taken the original risk, these franchises wouldn't be the cash cows they are. Escapism isn't necessarily bad but it's a little noticeable how much escapism is being sold to us at the detriment to real, innovative, intelligent art.
- IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
  People vote with their attendance and requisite dollars. Terminator Dark Fate and Charlie's Angels have bombed at the box office. Studios are about making money. They always have been and always will be. I would suspect Mr Scorcese would find the same thing in Bollywood as well. All genres go through cycles in film in terms of popularity. Marvel will have a down cycle at some point. Disney movies lost their way when Disney himself died. It takes leadership, a great script,great acting and creativity, to build successful movies that can grow into franchises. or be even something people enjoy watching more that once on it's own.
  - _hardwaregeek 7y ago
    > And if you’re going to tell me that it’s simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, I’m going to disagree. It’s a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course they’re going to want more of that one kind of thing. From the Scorsese Op-Ed. I did explain in my previous comment that "voting with their attendance" is a faulty excuse, because it's a self perpetuating cycle. Also, if studio execs just blindly gave people more of the same franchises without trying new ideas, we wouldn't have Marvel or Star Wars. Executives need to take creative risk if they want to receive financial gain. The idea that Marvel is just having a genre moment doesn't really follow. We've never seen a genre that subsumes all genres, that dominates the box office in such a relentless manner. Has there ever been a time where horror movies were playing at every movie theater, where everybody talked about horror movies, where practically every actor under the sun had starred in a horror movie?
    - IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
      Marvel must be doing something right, because their last film made over 2 Billion dollars. Marvel has found a formula that works and allows them to expand their set of characters and put them in movies of their own. They have used a diverse set of directors and actors to work on their films. And apparently, people like them. Some don't. Iron Man was the risk. Marvel's approach of a 15 year cycle of building and interlinking was what worked. For Warner/DC, they tried the same thing for DC characters and could not pull it off. Nor could Universal with the attempt to force a Monster Cinematic Universe. Their Tom Cruise Mummy movie failed. Marvel is getting beat up here, because they are so successful. DC gets beat up, because they have not figured out how to tonally present their movies in a way that can build a franchise. As to the size of the budgets, they are large because of the CGI that makes the characteristics of the superheros seem more real. The first modern Superman movie's tag line was: You will believe a man can fly". The Hope and Crosby Road Trip movies, the Abbot and Costello franchises or the Jerry Lewis Dean Martin movies were all franchises as well. Hell, Rin Tin Tin was a franchise. We've been here before and will be there again. Studios will milk what works for them until it no longer does, and the other studios will copy the genre and try to get in on the money there. Or they just reboot something that doesn't have a new story to tell, or has a weak cast or uninteresting story line. That is the business. You weren't forced to go and neither was anyone else. As for Scorcesse, he is reviled within the Academy community for some of his films.

acollins1331 7y ago

Sure, you shouldn't "always" escape like you say, but I don't think the people the author is criticizing are watching marvel movies 12 hours a day.

vharuck 7y ago
Moore seems to be implying they escape in their free time instead of working to improve the world. So they gripe, feel powerless to do anything, and comfort themselves with movies and comics where powerful people like them improve the world.
Zelphyr 7y ago
Reading between the lines of what Moore said I don't see the problem as simply watching superhero movies. It's watching too much TV at all. It's spending too much time on Facebook. It's buying a new [insert product here] that we can't afford because the short-term hit makes us feel better. It's drinking a little more alcohol than we know we should. It's telling our primary car doc that we want that pill because it's too scary and expensive to visit a therapist. My point is that there are more ways to escape now than there probably has ever been. Most of them in isolation and used moderately are harmless but far too may people don't use them in isolation or in moderation.
- altoidaltoid 7y ago
  Neil Postman is over this way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
anotherman554 7y ago
Moore would prefer that there be "better" art people are enjoying instead of the Marvel and DC superhero movies. But there is no specific barometer of "better" for him, he suggests something created in the 21st century would be "better" rather than an adaptation, but I don't think he really has a workable definition of "better".

Zelphyr 7y ago

I agree and I think we've lost the ability to be our own heroes. We're all walking around with massive anxieties and not facing them only makes us more anxious. And don't get me wrong; there's a place for escapism. Everybody needs and deserves a break every now and then. But what I think most people don't realize is that facing those anxieties and fears is far more rewarding and enriching than watching a movie for 90 minutes. It's ironic that we choose to watch something impossible like a guy who can shoot rays out of his eyes because we think overcoming our own fears is impossible.

RHSeeger 7y ago
> It's ironic that we choose to watch something impossible like a guy who can shoot rays out of his eyes because we think overcoming our own fears is impossible. But... we don't. I watch him shoot rays out of his eyes because it's fun and relaxing. I'm literally going into surgery tomorrow so they can cut out part the bone behind my eye, by sticking a knife up my nose, so that I don't go blind. I'm anxious above that but I'm doing it because it needs to be done. You know what I'm not going to do tonight? Try to face my own fears. I'm going to watch TV with my wife and relax. Because not every moment of my time needs to be facing my fears. Down time is _good_ for you.
- Zelphyr 7y ago
  What would happen if you spent some time paying attention to that anxiety? Noticing where you feel it in your body? Is it in your chest and shoulders like it usually is for me? Where in your chest and shoulders? What thoughts do you notice you have around the anxiety? And then I'm curious how you'd feel an hour after that exercise? A few hours? Yes, down time is good for you. That's why I said "Everybody deserves a break sometimes." But most people don't take a break sometimes. They take a break most of the time. Our minds and bodies have something to tell us and nothing good comes from not listening. In other words; paying attention to that is a form of down time. A very very useful one. I truly wish you the best with your surgery, though. Ask the doc to fix it so you can shoot rays out of that eye while he's in there. ;)
- wutbrodo 7y ago

thomascgalvin 7y ago

> I think his point is that escapism is fine for kids, but we're adults now and we're hindering ourselves by always escaping to a black-and-white good-and-evil fantasy land where there's no need for compromise or understanding as long as you have a big gun and supernatural powers. One of the most popular entries in the Marvel universe was about a moral argument between Captain America and Iron Man regarding the appropriate use of power, and the limits of personal autonomy versus international law. Yes, it was dressed up in bright colors and had plenty of pew-pew-pew, but it was very much not a black and white story. To this day you can find people who agree with either side. > But there's precious little of that in the kind of simplistic, violent, nuance-free "win" that continues to be perpetuated in this material. Stephen Strange's first outing featured him having an emotional breakdown over causing the death of someone who was actively trying to kill him, and saw him save the world through cleverness, not violence. Are comic book movies the pinnacle of moral debate? Of course not. But they aren't always punch-hard-save-day simple, either.

Ensorceled 7y ago
Is there are second example? This is the first thing I thought of ... and then couldn't come up with more.
- aglavine 7y ago
  Spider Man Multiverse is a 21th century movie, if movies can be labeled that way. The fascination with gadgets; the assembled, diverse family; the revere/mocking of speed (this follows a secret American cinema tradition masterful described by Manny Farber).
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  Captain America: The Winter Soldier made a strong point about the issues of surveillance and trading freedom for security, where even the good guys (SHIELD) didn't realize until too late that they were doing the work of literal nazis. There was lots of boom boom in it, but it wasn't a dumb movie. Arguably, Iron Man 1 was quite explicit about the issues of war, terrorism, and sales of weapons; it had a quite dark undertone for a MCU movie.

LanceH 7y ago

How about the Bond style spy movies. The movies where everything gets better by breaking out in song and dance. The crime dramas where the nice, hard working lawyer gets someone else to confess on the stand while defending his client. Even "The Godfather" is escapist in the sense that they really are just about their families in the end and aren't really that bad, except to the other gangsters who are worse. They're protecting us. Same deal for sports. What difference does it make if green team beats yellow team this week? I think this is really another case of looking down on comics as being "for kids". Really, if people are going to take down anything purely for being escapist, musicals should be the first to go :)

goto11 7y ago
Well this is Alan Moore, the author of such comics as From Hell and Watchmen, so I don't think you can fairly accuse him of looking down on comics as being for kids. And why do you think he should care about musicals more than his own medium of choice?
licebmi__at__ 7y ago
>Even "The Godfather" is escapist in the sense that they really are just about their families in the end and aren't really that bad, except to the other gangsters who are worse. They're protecting us. This is a pretty weird and shallow interpretation of the movie. I don't dismiss stuff for being "for kids", I love manga and cartoons, hell just this weekend I binged "green eggs and ham", still I'm perfectly aware that almost all of this media has a bad execution, shallow themes and well it is for kids, and if I get a discussion with my friends (specifically about superhero movies) is about how blatant the topics and absurd the topics are.
iamaelephant 7y ago
> Same deal for sports. What difference does it make if green team beats yellow team this week? You know..... you know sports are real life right? Like, there is an actual competition happening, it's not pre-scripted. Sports fans like sports because they like watching talented athletes competing with one another.

Reedx 7y ago

This is one of the reasons I love Hayao Miyazaki's movies. The characters are nuanced. Which is both more realistic and far more constructive. Take Princess Mononoke for example. There's the antagonist, Lady Eboshi, who runs a mining town and is destroying nature. Generally this would be the complete character. That's the villain, easy to hate. Must be vanquished. End of story. But then you learn she's empowering women and taking care of lepers, the most vulnerable. Her workers and the townspeople adore her. Now you have mixed feelings. And the answer goes from "destroy" to "cooperate" and seeking a peaceful, win-win solution.

rpmisms 7y ago
Bringing up Studio Ghibli in a conversation about good cinema is as close to cheating as you can get.
- pvaldes 7y ago
  I see your Ghibli and raise you a Woolly Aardman Farmageddon is pure gold
  - rpmisms 7y ago
    Goddamn it, you have me beat.

IOT_Apprentice 7y ago

So as adults we must reject the power of myth?

goatlover 7y ago
Only if it gets too popular, apparently.

Grue3 7y ago

Ironically, the best superhero story going right now, the one that truly explores the possibilities and the depths of the medium, is a cartoon for kids, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power.