10 ms·

Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils Facebook's Chinese Employees

58 points by otoburb 7y ago

christkv 7y ago
If they are on an H1B that’s a pretty risky move.
nailer 7y ago
> complaints of anti-China bias Zuckerberg is quite clearly being critical of the Chinese Communist Party, who by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC. There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. Zuck is merely judging an authoritarian government for it's own actions. Shame on those who would wish to conflate the two.
- have_faith 7y ago
  Bit of a mirror to the tightrope of people trying to discuss objections to the Israeli governments actions.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves. This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a personal insult to themselves. The PRC has influenced their people to regard any idea that goes against the PRC as racism towards chinese.
  - scarmig 7y ago
    This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.
    - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
      Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.
      - nailer 7y ago
        Anecdote (not data, not agreeing or disagreeing, just one point): I have good mainland Chinese friends who are members of the CCP. They don't believe in communism, they're members of the CCP because 'it looks good to have the CCP on your CV'. They know the government killed people in Tiananmen square. They do link the CCP to the fact they're richer than their parents (I see this as the US deciding to 'open China' back in the 70s). And they value stability more than the individual.
      - larnmar 7y ago
        Is that nationalism or just a background knowledge that your whole family could wind up in a prison camp if you say the wrong thing?
      - scarmig 7y ago
        Having dated several people from the mainland, this is not my experience. Which isn't to say we always agree on PRC politics, but the idea that they uncritically buy the Party line is simply wrong. If mainland Chinese people are mindless drones incapable of independent thought, why does the PRC need to invest billions of dollars every year in monitoring and policing what people say and think?
- paganel 7y ago
  > There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. At some point you also have to make it about the people, too, after all the Chinese Communist Party is comprised of Chinese people.
  - nkrisc 7y ago
    What percentage of Chinese citizens are actual party members? Honest question, I have no idea, but if I had to wager I would guess not a very large percentage.
    - hangonhn 7y ago
      90 million according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China It's hard to assume that the CCP doesn't have the mandate of the people. We just don't know one way or another since there are no free elections.
      - eznoonze 7y ago
        Chinese people join the CCP not because they identify with the communist ideals. They join because it gives access to a lot of resources and power that is otherwise unavailable to outsiders. It is essentially a gangster of national proportion, and behaves exactly like one, and they own the army.
        paganel 7y ago
        Yeah, I know that, my mom joined the Romanian Communist Party in the early ‘80s for the same thing (so that she could more easily get food for young me), but that doesn’t make that entire generation less to blame as a whole.
    - eznoonze 7y ago
      From some estimate they have about 80 million members. Because becoming a party member is a prerequisite to any degree of success in China, both in business or government. Being a member one has to abide by very strict internal party rules (not the kind of code of conduct/ethics you are thinking). It is a completely top-down organization. You don't get to decide your party leader, sorry!
- Cookingboy 7y ago
  >by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC If you have studied Chinese history you'd know the mandate does not come from it being democratically elected, but rather how good it's doing its job. Democracy is not only a concept that's foreign to Chinese history, it's not even desired by that many people in China.
sugarpile 7y ago
@dang, any chance we can get the url updated to one with the usual theinformation.com paywall bypass?
throwGuardian 7y ago
Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech Or, the press is out to make a mountain of a mole - most Chinese employees at Facebook are happy despite Zuks' tone against the govt.
- thomasjames 7y ago
  Nationalism is nationalism regardless of said nation.
  - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
    but nationalism for the chinese is particularly intense, see my comment on that below.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  if you want an explanation for why this is, checkout my explanation down below
- mistersquid 7y ago
  > the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin. Such an implicit critique undermines the foundations on which free speech stands. Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those who would speak.
  - null_vector 7y ago
    You used a lot of words to say nothing at all.
umvi 7y ago
Title should read: "Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees" At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook.
- justinzollars 7y ago
  Agreed. Tim Cook seems laser focused on shipping as much of our semiconductor industry to China as possible.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    Wait, what about their contracts with TSMC?
  - jjtheblunt 7y ago
    I don't get that impression at all. Semiconductor fabs may exist overseas, but the technology is predominately domestic, from what i can tell. Micron in Idaho is an American powerhouse, for example.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  It's probably easier for him to do so, given that Facebook is banned in that country. But then again, so is Google, yet they pursued Project Dragonfly.
- joeblau 7y ago
  From the financial risk perspective, Tim really can't say anything.
- chongli 7y ago
  Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook What spine? Facebook is blocked in China. It costs him nothing to take this stance. If Tim Cook tried the same, China could seize the factories and Apple would have no product to sell. I'm sure in private Tim Cook would admit that Apple needs to diversify their manufacturing out of China as a hedge against the risk of a hostile government there. That is a process which cannot happen overnight, however, and so in the mean time it's best to tiptoe around the sleeping dragon.
davidwitt415 7y ago
Mirror check on 'intense nationalism' - how many Americans supported or still support unlimited US military actions around the globe, not to mention CIA buggery? How has democratic activity slowed this down in any meaningful way in the last 20 years? You are not as immune as you think to government propaganda, it's just easier to spot when it's another country.
- Consultant32452 7y ago
  Obama campaigned as anti-war. So did Trump. Neither of those presidents have lived up to their campaign promises, but it seems clear to me the American people don't want to keep the most insane of US military actions going but feel powerless to stop it. The tricky part is that corporate media on both sides of the aisle never saw a war they didn't love. But that's different than the American people.
- natechols 7y ago
  I think everyone here is already well aware of this, considering that some variation on this same comment gets posted repeatedly every time China's human rights issues are in the news.
- eznoonze 7y ago
  Hmmm....Government propaganda is one thing. But sending you to concentration camp or prison because you have different views from the government is another. Not sure what kind of equivalency you are trying to make here.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  The fact that you can talk about that, while criticism of China gets shuffled off the front page EVEN on an American site, speaks volumes. https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dx8rn0/absolutely_no_mercy_leaked_files_expose_how_china/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dx8rn0/absolutely... What would you say is the American equivalent to that? And what would be the American equivalent to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1rp31/are_we_really_expected_to_not_fight_back_against/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1rp31/are_we_rea... And that is, all other actions considered, such a harmless and cute clip. Keeping it SFW. https://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/videos/950353428667865/ https://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/videos/9503534286... How do you explain this? > You are not as immune as you think You don't know what I think. Personally, I'm not even American, and have criticized the US for the stuff you mention more harshly than the average American by orders of magnitude. That doesn't mean I don't see the infinite difference between the US government sometimes sucking, and the CCP (== no elections, no free press, torture camps, putting down protests over the law being broken with force, dictating to companies what they may post in Western countries, and so on). Yeah, Snowden had to run, but we can talk about Snowden. There's American books by American publishers about American war crimes, Noam Chomsky leads a full, critical life. There's a greater risk that the Chinese government might kidnap or assassinate him, just for saying something they don't like in passing, than the US govt laying hand on him. So to even mention the CCP and the US in one sentence... again, I'm not even American, and even I know all that and more. The only data point you're offering for what you think about the subject at hand is this "mirror check". Those are a dime a dozen, people pretending to be objective or neutral, and calling it a mirror check -- when the whole point of the exercise them getting away from their own personal stance and responsibility, while creating straw men up about a generic other.
outside1234 7y ago
Retitle: "One surveillance state is jealous of the other surveillance state"
rolltiide 7y ago
Culturally, should a suicide of an employee that comes from a culture that doesn't put weight on suicide really draw more attention to an issue than before? Beijing's state policy is freedom from religion and that removes most of the mental failsafes preventing suicide. My anti-suicide talk with some Chinese people has often been prefaced with "oh yeah our culture typically focuses on self preservation and avoidance of suicide, hope that clears things up for you" before explaining how that person's failure has other options. I wouldn't consider myself anti-suicide when it comes to other people's options, I would consider myself to have just strong self preservation skills and can perceive options for myself and other people that are considering an escape hatch. So I think there is a cultural component to consider here, for western media wanting to cover this.
emergie 7y ago
I remember when Mark had Xi Jinping book on his desk. This guy is a joke. https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-with-chinese-president-xi-jinpings-book-20141209-1233er.html https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-wi...
pressurefree 7y ago
the Jews must be crazy!
thecleaner 7y ago
Wait until Zucky says something against the Indian government - still has a better human rights record. But Indians will lose their shit.
jmpman 7y ago
My understanding is that I’m not allowed to discriminate based upon the country of origin of my employees. As long as they have the right to work, they must be considered equally. Should that be altered for Chinese citizens?
edwinyzh 7y ago
This video by Nathan Rich contributes some information about the history relationship between China and Facebook. relationship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ

58 points by otoburb 7y ago

If they are on an H1B that’s a pretty risky move.

> complaints of anti-China bias Zuckerberg is quite clearly being critical of the Chinese Communist Party, who by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC. There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. Zuck is merely judging an authoritarian government for it's own actions. Shame on those who would wish to conflate the two.

have_faith 7y ago
Bit of a mirror to the tightrope of people trying to discuss objections to the Israeli governments actions.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
In order to understand why this conflation is occurring, you need to understand chinese culture. Chinese culture is very different in some fundamental ways that's hard for western countries to understand. First of all, the people in China are trained from a very early age to think of themselves as indistinguishable from their country and their government. There literally is no concept of self in China. People are tauhgt to think of themselves as completely the same as their government. this is a fundamental viewpoint of how the chinese see themselves. This of course allows the PRC to do whatever it wants without any complaints from the people because any thoughts against the PRC is tantamount to being anti-chinese. Thus when chinese people see anything that goes against the PRC they take it as a personal insult to themselves. The PRC has influenced their people to regard any idea that goes against the PRC as racism towards chinese.
- scarmig 7y ago
  This might suit both anti- and pro-PRC propagandists, but it's not reflective of reality on the ground. Chinese people have plenty of self-conception, independent thoughts, and the ability to distinguish between themselves and their government and objectively judge government actions. At least, no less so than people anywhere.
  - thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
    Anyone who's ever lived in china for several years will tell you chinese nationalism is extremely intense. Even in america, if you have a conversation with a chinese person about the PRC or even just economic conditions in china, that person will in any case, always defend the PRC under any condition, no matter what the PRC has done, even if they themselves are against the PRC and agree with what your saying.
    - nailer 7y ago
      Anecdote (not data, not agreeing or disagreeing, just one point): I have good mainland Chinese friends who are members of the CCP. They don't believe in communism, they're members of the CCP because 'it looks good to have the CCP on your CV'. They know the government killed people in Tiananmen square. They do link the CCP to the fact they're richer than their parents (I see this as the US deciding to 'open China' back in the 70s). And they value stability more than the individual.
    - larnmar 7y ago
      Is that nationalism or just a background knowledge that your whole family could wind up in a prison camp if you say the wrong thing?
    - scarmig 7y ago
      Having dated several people from the mainland, this is not my experience. Which isn't to say we always agree on PRC politics, but the idea that they uncritically buy the Party line is simply wrong. If mainland Chinese people are mindless drones incapable of independent thought, why does the PRC need to invest billions of dollars every year in monitoring and policing what people say and think?
paganel 7y ago
> There is no bias against China as a country, or Chinese people. At some point you also have to make it about the people, too, after all the Chinese Communist Party is comprised of Chinese people.
- nkrisc 7y ago
  What percentage of Chinese citizens are actual party members? Honest question, I have no idea, but if I had to wager I would guess not a very large percentage.
  - hangonhn 7y ago
    90 million according to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China It's hard to assume that the CCP doesn't have the mandate of the people. We just don't know one way or another since there are no free elections.
    - eznoonze 7y ago
      Chinese people join the CCP not because they identify with the communist ideals. They join because it gives access to a lot of resources and power that is otherwise unavailable to outsiders. It is essentially a gangster of national proportion, and behaves exactly like one, and they own the army.
      - paganel 7y ago
        Yeah, I know that, my mom joined the Romanian Communist Party in the early ‘80s for the same thing (so that she could more easily get food for young me), but that doesn’t make that entire generation less to blame as a whole.
  - eznoonze 7y ago
    From some estimate they have about 80 million members. Because becoming a party member is a prerequisite to any degree of success in China, both in business or government. Being a member one has to abide by very strict internal party rules (not the kind of code of conduct/ethics you are thinking). It is a completely top-down organization. You don't get to decide your party leader, sorry!
Cookingboy 7y ago
>by nature of being authoritarian, have no mandate from the people of the PRC If you have studied Chinese history you'd know the mandate does not come from it being democratically elected, but rather how good it's doing its job. Democracy is not only a concept that's foreign to Chinese history, it's not even desired by that many people in China.

sugarpile 7y ago

@dang, any chance we can get the url updated to one with the usual theinformation.com paywall bypass?

throwGuardian 7y ago

Puzzle me this - as an employee in the US, for a company paying well above market for your labor, with generous perks and the freedom to speak out against the employer (which is likely absent in China), the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodating work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech Or, the press is out to make a mountain of a mole - most Chinese employees at Facebook are happy despite Zuks' tone against the govt.

thomasjames 7y ago
Nationalism is nationalism regardless of said nation.
- thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
  but nationalism for the chinese is particularly intense, see my comment on that below.
thorwasdfasdf 7y ago
if you want an explanation for why this is, checkout my explanation down below
mistersquid 7y ago
> the response of the Chinese workforce seems rather paradoxical - criticising an accommodatung work environment, which, mind you, is only possible because of freedom of speech You’re questioning, and implicitly criticizing, these workers for exercising their access to free speech, for complaining about an aspect of their employer’s position about their country of origin. Such an implicit critique undermines the foundations on which free speech stands. Speech is free regardless of the benefits and privileges granted to those who would speak.
- null_vector 7y ago
  You used a lot of words to say nothing at all.

umvi 7y ago

Title should read: "Zuckerberg’s Anti-China Rhetoric Roils (Chinese) Facebook Employees" At any rate, I applaud Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook.

justinzollars 7y ago
Agreed. Tim Cook seems laser focused on shipping as much of our semiconductor industry to China as possible.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Wait, what about their contracts with TSMC?
- jjtheblunt 7y ago
  I don't get that impression at all. Semiconductor fabs may exist overseas, but the technology is predominately domestic, from what i can tell. Micron in Idaho is an American powerhouse, for example.
Apocryphon 7y ago
It's probably easier for him to do so, given that Facebook is banned in that country. But then again, so is Google, yet they pursued Project Dragonfly.
joeblau 7y ago
From the financial risk perspective, Tim really can't say anything.
chongli 7y ago
Zuckerberg for actually having a spine when it comes to China, unlike Tim Cook What spine? Facebook is blocked in China. It costs him nothing to take this stance. If Tim Cook tried the same, China could seize the factories and Apple would have no product to sell. I'm sure in private Tim Cook would admit that Apple needs to diversify their manufacturing out of China as a hedge against the risk of a hostile government there. That is a process which cannot happen overnight, however, and so in the mean time it's best to tiptoe around the sleeping dragon.

davidwitt415 7y ago

Mirror check on 'intense nationalism' - how many Americans supported or still support unlimited US military actions around the globe, not to mention CIA buggery? How has democratic activity slowed this down in any meaningful way in the last 20 years? You are not as immune as you think to government propaganda, it's just easier to spot when it's another country.

Consultant32452 7y ago
Obama campaigned as anti-war. So did Trump. Neither of those presidents have lived up to their campaign promises, but it seems clear to me the American people don't want to keep the most insane of US military actions going but feel powerless to stop it. The tricky part is that corporate media on both sides of the aisle never saw a war they didn't love. But that's different than the American people.
natechols 7y ago
I think everyone here is already well aware of this, considering that some variation on this same comment gets posted repeatedly every time China's human rights issues are in the news.
eznoonze 7y ago
Hmmm....Government propaganda is one thing. But sending you to concentration camp or prison because you have different views from the government is another. Not sure what kind of equivalency you are trying to make here.
PavlovsCat 7y ago
The fact that you can talk about that, while criticism of China gets shuffled off the front page EVEN on an American site, speaks volumes. https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dx8rn0/absolutely_no_mercy_leaked_files_expose_how_china/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dx8rn0/absolutely... What would you say is the American equivalent to that? And what would be the American equivalent to this: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1rp31/are_we_really_expected_to_not_fight_back_against/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1rp31/are_we_rea... And that is, all other actions considered, such a harmless and cute clip. Keeping it SFW. https://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/videos/950353428667865/ https://www.facebook.com/MichaelYonFanPage/videos/9503534286... How do you explain this? > You are not as immune as you think You don't know what I think. Personally, I'm not even American, and have criticized the US for the stuff you mention more harshly than the average American by orders of magnitude. That doesn't mean I don't see the infinite difference between the US government sometimes sucking, and the CCP (== no elections, no free press, torture camps, putting down protests over the law being broken with force, dictating to companies what they may post in Western countries, and so on). Yeah, Snowden had to run, but we can talk about Snowden. There's American books by American publishers about American war crimes, Noam Chomsky leads a full, critical life. There's a greater risk that the Chinese government might kidnap or assassinate him, just for saying something they don't like in passing, than the US govt laying hand on him. So to even mention the CCP and the US in one sentence... again, I'm not even American, and even I know all that and more. The only data point you're offering for what you think about the subject at hand is this "mirror check". Those are a dime a dozen, people pretending to be objective or neutral, and calling it a mirror check -- when the whole point of the exercise them getting away from their own personal stance and responsibility, while creating straw men up about a generic other.

outside1234 7y ago

Retitle: "One surveillance state is jealous of the other surveillance state"

rolltiide 7y ago

Culturally, should a suicide of an employee that comes from a culture that doesn't put weight on suicide really draw more attention to an issue than before? Beijing's state policy is freedom from religion and that removes most of the mental failsafes preventing suicide. My anti-suicide talk with some Chinese people has often been prefaced with "oh yeah our culture typically focuses on self preservation and avoidance of suicide, hope that clears things up for you" before explaining how that person's failure has other options. I wouldn't consider myself anti-suicide when it comes to other people's options, I would consider myself to have just strong self preservation skills and can perceive options for myself and other people that are considering an escape hatch. So I think there is a cultural component to consider here, for western media wanting to cover this.

emergie 7y ago

I remember when Mark had Xi Jinping book on his desk. This guy is a joke. https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-with-chinese-president-xi-jinpings-book-20141209-1233er.html https://www.smh.com.au/technology/mark-zuckerberg-snapped-wi...

pressurefree 7y ago

the Jews must be crazy!

thecleaner 7y ago

Wait until Zucky says something against the Indian government - still has a better human rights record. But Indians will lose their shit.

jmpman 7y ago

My understanding is that I’m not allowed to discriminate based upon the country of origin of my employees. As long as they have the right to work, they must be considered equally. Should that be altered for Chinese citizens?

edwinyzh 7y ago

This video by Nathan Rich contributes some information about the history relationship between China and Facebook. relationship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2srfDwM2sQ