3 ms·

No, everything claimed is easy to verify. Races aren't segregated, racism isn't taught (as in, it's not part of the curriculum.) All races are equal under Israe

by jacobmg 16y ago

No, everything claimed is easy to verify. Races aren't segregated, racism isn't taught (as in, it's not part of the curriculum.) All races are equal under Israeli law. Your education on this subject had to have been seriously skewed to think otherwise.

srean 16y ago
From what I remember from posts on HN by Israeli citizens, but of ethnically non-Jewish background its not quite the clear picture you paint. Leaving aside Palestinian civilians who do not have recourse to the same civic laws and roads as Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights even legally (let alone inconsistent application of existing laws) as Jewish citizens. These discrepancies crop up in different spheres of life, from marriage to permit for visiting cities to owning property.
- jacobmg 16y ago
  You really are mistaken. The hearsay of some hackernews posts amounts to zero evidence, while you can verify the legal equality of races in Israel in any decent book. Unless of course, you want to grasp at straws like another poster here and argue that semantically a Law of Return is racist (even though many acknowledged non-racist countries have the same laws) or Arabs having the option to opt out of the draft is racist (which should speak for itself.)
  - teyc 16y ago
    Here is a general observation (not just about Israel). In places where race is an overt issue, and people at the highest political places earn their votes based on race, and therefore dependent upon people who are conscious of race rights, no amount of laws is going to stop a government from exercising racial preferences in its administration. Countries like Fiji is an example.
    - jacobmg 16y ago
      You are implying that Israelis vote based strongly on race. This is entirely untrue. There are Jews of many different races in the Israeli government. I suppose every country that hasn't yet had a minority president is racist?
      - teyc 16y ago
        I'd say that not only Israelis, but generally people in Middle East are preoccupied with the notion of race/religion as an identity. It's a state of being, reinforced by decades of conflict/victimisation. I'm not blaming anyone here. Just describing the sad state of affairs. However, if the US can turn things around in 50 years from a situation even worse than it is today in Israel, it gives us all hope doesn't it?
  - srean 16y ago
    No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve. If you would look at my post I mentioned rights on traveling on the same street, equal rights on marriage etc etc. To give an example: between someone who toes the government line in repeating there arent any gay Iranians and an Iraninan who says he is gay, I would trust the latter. More so if I had other conversations with him that seemed genuine.
    - jacobmg 16y ago
      You are just reciting the typical myths about racism/Israel. For example you mentioned road use discrimination, instead of that being any sort of discrimination based on race/religion, it is separation based on citizenship of PA or Israel. Arabs and anyone else who are Israeli can use these roads. To say that restriction from use based on different citizenship is discrimination is just laughable. As far as "marriage discrimination", there is no direct legal discrimination, and the arguments that there are indirect discrimination hinge on a law that doesn't grant citizenship to those who marry an Israeli automatically. Grasping at straws. >No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve. This is just a recipe for bias. You don't just trust people you know because one, there experience isn't anything better than anecdotal either, and two, it is difficult for any person to avoid distrust of someone they know and like personally. You should be more responsible than this when you are accusing a whole country of systematized racism.
      - srean 16y ago
        After a quick search: Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses. -- The Independent Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth." -- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 3 times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children. -- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices the Law of Return applies to ones religious status, and anyone can convert to Judaism. --jacobmg on HN (justifying religious discrimination) Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes by Jewish or Israeli forces, before and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, but remained within the borders of what would become Israel, that is, those currently known as Arab citizens of Israel, are deemed present absentees by the legislation. Present absentees are regarded as absent by the Israeli government because they left their homes, even if they did not intend to leave them for more than a few days, and even if they did so involuntarily Regardless of your efforts at justifying it with excuses, it stands up to the definition of discrimination, whatever the excuse or the path to that may be. No racist person or entity in history has ever suffered from lack of excuses. Given these, I am less likely to believe you compared to someone who has earned my trust. I have never claimed that whole of Israel has systemized racism, you are putting words into my mouth and giving me more reasons to doubt what you say. I am more disinclined to carry the conversation further, for several reasons (i) I dont like deeply nested threads (ii) this is no longer an active topic on HN and I do not come to HN to discuss Arab/Israel issues (iii) after much consideration you seem to be intellectually dishonest, so I do not consider it a fruitful use of my time. I would have more respect for you if you said for instance yes we have these well documented problems but not everyone in Israel is like that.
ComputerGuru 16y ago
Segregation doesn't have to be official and in the written law for it to exist. Segregation is a real fact in every day Israeli life, as I saw in a 2 year stint from '04 to '06. Since we're talking AlJazeera, here's a recent article on segregation and mixed Israeli-Palestinian couples: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201112912322207901.html http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201112...
- jacobmg 16y ago
  >Segregation is a real fact in every day Israeli life Are you referring to the fact that Jewish and Arab populations live mostly separate towns and cities? This isn't segregation, since this is by choice of what communities people there want to live in. Unless you want to argue semantics and say something like "well technically they are segregated even if it's by choice so therefore it's racist." Evidence of this communal separation and anecdotes of individuals with prejudice does not amount to systematized racism in Israel.
- true_religion 16y ago
  I think it is widely accepted that state-sponsored segregation and institutional racism are wrong, and should be removed. However, its a lot harder to make the case that it is wrong for people to freely choose to separate themselves into ethnic ghettos in the absence of government controls. To make a comparison to America, consider an Italian living in a "Little Italy"-style enclave, who believes it would be best for him or her to marry Italian-Americans. Are they a troubling group? Do we perhaps need UN intervention to ease the tension between them and other near by ethnic enclaves?
btilly 16y ago
All races are equal under Israeli law. From that I can conclude that you are either ignorant or a liar. Because races are NOT equal in Israeli law. Either in theory OR practice. Let me give some examples. The Law of Return only applies to Jews. The military draft does not apply to certain ethnic groups, because Israel doesn't want most of them in its military forces. And that's in theory. In practice it is much worse, as was documented for the Israeli government in the Or report.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  > The military draft does not apply to certain ethnic groups, because Israel doesn't want most of them in its military forces. Absolutely fascinating. Where did you hear this? The draft doesn't apply to non-Jews because Israel doesn't want to force its Arab citizens to fight other Arabs. However, Arabs, Muslims, and Christians are encouraged to join the military or civil service and they serve alongside Israeli Jews or in their own units. In fact Druze men have mandatory conscription. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minoritie... > The Law of Return only applies to Jews. Many, many countries have a Right or Law of Return. I always find it interesting that it is particularly bad when Jews do it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
  - btilly 16y ago
    The draft doesn't apply to non-Jews because Israel doesn't want to force its Arab citizens to fight other Arabs. However, Arabs, Muslims, and Christians are encouraged to join the military or civil service and they serve alongside Israeli Jews or in their own units. In fact Druze men have mandatory conscription. Check the law again. The draft applies to all Israelis but exemptions can be granted. And in fact have been granted to Arabs. The conscription of Druze men is a consequence of their not having been granted a special exemption. Note that not all branches of the military service are open to minorities. Notably the airforce is not. And having served as a pilot in the airforce is a requirement for being a pilot in the state airline. Many, many countries have a Right or Law of Return. I always find it interesting that it is particularly bad when Jews do it. I was not saying it was good or bad. I was citing it as evidence that different races are treated differently under Israeli law. There are reasons for this discrimination. However discriminating and claiming that you don't discriminate is hypocrisy.

by jacobmg 16y ago

srean 16y ago

From what I remember from posts on HN by Israeli citizens, but of ethnically non-Jewish background its not quite the clear picture you paint. Leaving aside Palestinian civilians who do not have recourse to the same civic laws and roads as Israeli citizens, Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights even legally (let alone inconsistent application of existing laws) as Jewish citizens. These discrepancies crop up in different spheres of life, from marriage to permit for visiting cities to owning property.

jacobmg 16y ago
You really are mistaken. The hearsay of some hackernews posts amounts to zero evidence, while you can verify the legal equality of races in Israel in any decent book. Unless of course, you want to grasp at straws like another poster here and argue that semantically a Law of Return is racist (even though many acknowledged non-racist countries have the same laws) or Arabs having the option to opt out of the draft is racist (which should speak for itself.)
- teyc 16y ago
  Here is a general observation (not just about Israel). In places where race is an overt issue, and people at the highest political places earn their votes based on race, and therefore dependent upon people who are conscious of race rights, no amount of laws is going to stop a government from exercising racial preferences in its administration. Countries like Fiji is an example.
  - jacobmg 16y ago
    You are implying that Israelis vote based strongly on race. This is entirely untrue. There are Jews of many different races in the Israeli government. I suppose every country that hasn't yet had a minority president is racist?
    - teyc 16y ago
      I'd say that not only Israelis, but generally people in Middle East are preoccupied with the notion of race/religion as an identity. It's a state of being, reinforced by decades of conflict/victimisation. I'm not blaming anyone here. Just describing the sad state of affairs. However, if the US can turn things around in 50 years from a situation even worse than it is today in Israel, it gives us all hope doesn't it?
- srean 16y ago
  No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve. If you would look at my post I mentioned rights on traveling on the same street, equal rights on marriage etc etc. To give an example: between someone who toes the government line in repeating there arent any gay Iranians and an Iraninan who says he is gay, I would trust the latter. More so if I had other conversations with him that seemed genuine.
  - jacobmg 16y ago
    You are just reciting the typical myths about racism/Israel. For example you mentioned road use discrimination, instead of that being any sort of discrimination based on race/religion, it is separation based on citizenship of PA or Israel. Arabs and anyone else who are Israeli can use these roads. To say that restriction from use based on different citizenship is discrimination is just laughable. As far as "marriage discrimination", there is no direct legal discrimination, and the arguments that there are indirect discrimination hinge on a law that doesn't grant citizenship to those who marry an Israeli automatically. Grasping at straws. >No, I would rather trust the first person accounts from people whom I have zero reasons to disbelieve. This is just a recipe for bias. You don't just trust people you know because one, there experience isn't anything better than anecdotal either, and two, it is difficult for any person to avoid distrust of someone they know and like personally. You should be more responsible than this when you are accusing a whole country of systematized racism.
    - srean 16y ago
      After a quick search: Israel's High Court has narrowly upheld a law denying Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza married to Israeli citizens the right to live in the country with their spouses. -- The Independent Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth." -- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 3 times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children. -- U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices the Law of Return applies to ones religious status, and anyone can convert to Judaism. --jacobmg on HN (justifying religious discrimination) Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes by Jewish or Israeli forces, before and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, but remained within the borders of what would become Israel, that is, those currently known as Arab citizens of Israel, are deemed present absentees by the legislation. Present absentees are regarded as absent by the Israeli government because they left their homes, even if they did not intend to leave them for more than a few days, and even if they did so involuntarily Regardless of your efforts at justifying it with excuses, it stands up to the definition of discrimination, whatever the excuse or the path to that may be. No racist person or entity in history has ever suffered from lack of excuses. Given these, I am less likely to believe you compared to someone who has earned my trust. I have never claimed that whole of Israel has systemized racism, you are putting words into my mouth and giving me more reasons to doubt what you say. I am more disinclined to carry the conversation further, for several reasons (i) I dont like deeply nested threads (ii) this is no longer an active topic on HN and I do not come to HN to discuss Arab/Israel issues (iii) after much consideration you seem to be intellectually dishonest, so I do not consider it a fruitful use of my time. I would have more respect for you if you said for instance yes we have these well documented problems but not everyone in Israel is like that.

ComputerGuru 16y ago

Segregation doesn't have to be official and in the written law for it to exist. Segregation is a real fact in every day Israeli life, as I saw in a 2 year stint from '04 to '06. Since we're talking AlJazeera, here's a recent article on segregation and mixed Israeli-Palestinian couples: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201112912322207901.html http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201112...

jacobmg 16y ago
>Segregation is a real fact in every day Israeli life Are you referring to the fact that Jewish and Arab populations live mostly separate towns and cities? This isn't segregation, since this is by choice of what communities people there want to live in. Unless you want to argue semantics and say something like "well technically they are segregated even if it's by choice so therefore it's racist." Evidence of this communal separation and anecdotes of individuals with prejudice does not amount to systematized racism in Israel.
true_religion 16y ago
I think it is widely accepted that state-sponsored segregation and institutional racism are wrong, and should be removed. However, its a lot harder to make the case that it is wrong for people to freely choose to separate themselves into ethnic ghettos in the absence of government controls. To make a comparison to America, consider an Italian living in a "Little Italy"-style enclave, who believes it would be best for him or her to marry Italian-Americans. Are they a troubling group? Do we perhaps need UN intervention to ease the tension between them and other near by ethnic enclaves?

btilly 16y ago

All races are equal under Israeli law. From that I can conclude that you are either ignorant or a liar. Because races are NOT equal in Israeli law. Either in theory OR practice. Let me give some examples. The Law of Return only applies to Jews. The military draft does not apply to certain ethnic groups, because Israel doesn't want most of them in its military forces. And that's in theory. In practice it is much worse, as was documented for the Israeli government in the Or report.

tkahn6 16y ago
> The military draft does not apply to certain ethnic groups, because Israel doesn't want most of them in its military forces. Absolutely fascinating. Where did you hear this? The draft doesn't apply to non-Jews because Israel doesn't want to force its Arab citizens to fight other Arabs. However, Arabs, Muslims, and Christians are encouraged to join the military or civil service and they serve alongside Israeli Jews or in their own units. In fact Druze men have mandatory conscription. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minorities_in_the_IDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces#Minoritie... > The Law of Return only applies to Jews. Many, many countries have a Right or Law of Return. I always find it interesting that it is particularly bad when Jews do it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
- btilly 16y ago
  The draft doesn't apply to non-Jews because Israel doesn't want to force its Arab citizens to fight other Arabs. However, Arabs, Muslims, and Christians are encouraged to join the military or civil service and they serve alongside Israeli Jews or in their own units. In fact Druze men have mandatory conscription. Check the law again. The draft applies to all Israelis but exemptions can be granted. And in fact have been granted to Arabs. The conscription of Druze men is a consequence of their not having been granted a special exemption. Note that not all branches of the military service are open to minorities. Notably the airforce is not. And having served as a pilot in the airforce is a requirement for being a pilot in the state airline. Many, many countries have a Right or Law of Return. I always find it interesting that it is particularly bad when Jews do it. I was not saying it was good or bad. I was citing it as evidence that different races are treated differently under Israeli law. There are reasons for this discrimination. However discriminating and claiming that you don't discriminate is hypocrisy.