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> You can't steal online data. You can only copy it that's stealing a document in anyone's book. > Exposed crimes against the constitution by the government a

> You can't steal online data. You can only copy it that's stealing a document in anyone's book. > Exposed crimes against the constitution by the government and the military to the peopl You're arguing with me, but I agree with you, I'm simply saying that a military court said that. That's why I said technically. The law is all about technicalities. Manning wore a uniform, she was subject to court-martial, and court-martial ruled against her. I'm just reporting it. > Which is an extremely corrupt move. Which is what happens when you're in the armed forces and have to deal with justice. It's the same for everyone who joins the military. She wasn't treated in a special way.

dependenttypes 7y ago
> that's stealing a document in anyone's book. It would certainly be stealing if she deleted the documents in the server afterwards, which she did not. Stealing implies that the original is gone in everyday speech. Most people would be very upset if you stole their car, not so much if you copied it. > I'm simply saying that a military court said that. You might want to edit your previous post then. From "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." to "The military court claims that she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect", in which case I would claim that the military is corrupt and trying to cover their own asses. Anyway, whatever the military court said does not change the reality of the situation. > Which is what happens when you're in the armed forces and have to deal with justice. Yes, and I am against that as the objective of such "courts" is to do the military's bidding (which is to unfairly punish whistle-blowers and give lighter punishments to war criminals).
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  > Stealing implies that the original is gone in everyday speech. "Data theft" is understood to mean illicit copying, with no assumption that originals were destroyed. In everyday speech, "stealing data" implies unauthorized copies. There are advantages to controlling the terminology in a narrative, but the ship has sailed on this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_theft
- mariorossi666 7y ago
  > It would certainly be stealing if she deleted the documents in the server afterwards, which she did not Again, not a lawyer, not trying to counter you personally, but if someone clones my credit card and take money from it, it is stealing, even if the card is still in my pocket. If someone use my bank's password to transfer funds to his account, it is stealing, even if my account is still in my possess. > "The military court claims that she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect" That translates to "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." because that's what a court does, it establish the facts, unless we prove the court-martial framed Mannings for something she did not do. If I'm sentenced by a court for fraud, it means I committed fraud, unless I prove the court is wrong. Saying "the court says that X did that" and "X did that" it's the same thing. > which is to unfairly punish whistle-blowers and give lighter punishments to war criminals I agree it is unfair, but the military know how it is, it's not something special to Mannings's case.
  - dependenttypes 7y ago
    > it is stealing I would disagree (although it is closer to the definition of thieft than stealing data is as you lose the ability to withdraw the money). > That translates to "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." No, it doesn't. The "court" could as well say "the sun rotates around earth and the moon is made out of cheese", it would not make it correct. > unless we prove the court-martial framed Mannings for something she did not do. Guilty until proven innocent, eh? > Saying "the court says that X did that" and "X did that" it's the same thing. You seem to be putting a lot of trust to the authority of the court. To me the court does not hold any more credibility than anyone else. > it's not something special to Mannings's case Not claiming otherwise.
    - mariorossi666 7y ago
      First of all, sorry, but I'm Italian and I don;t get all the nuances. The difference between stealing and theft was unknown to me. Secondly: no, it's not guilty until proven innocent, Manning has been proven guilty, she never denied of illegally obtaining those documents. third: in this case Manning confessed. There's no much debate we can do about it. fourth: no, I don't put any particular fate on courts, is just how the system works. I'm not a sex offender until a court says so. And after that people would say "he's a sex offender" not "the court said he's a sex offender". Unfortunately I don't make the rules.
- efa 7y ago
  So copying Coke's secret formula is not stealing?
  - kempbellt 7y ago
    I'd say that it really depends on what you do with the information. If you find out that Coke products secretly include arsenic and you share that with the general public, I don't think anyone (besides Coke) would be calling you a thief. If you steal their secret formula so that you can profit off of it, or just because you want to share it with the world to break their monopoly of their own product, I would consider that stealing. Stealing a "secret" is a weird notion
  - dependenttypes 7y ago
    I do not think so, no. Especially not if it was released to the world for free.

dependenttypes 7y ago

> that's stealing a document in anyone's book. It would certainly be stealing if she deleted the documents in the server afterwards, which she did not. Stealing implies that the original is gone in everyday speech. Most people would be very upset if you stole their car, not so much if you copied it. > I'm simply saying that a military court said that. You might want to edit your previous post then. From "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." to "The military court claims that she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect", in which case I would claim that the military is corrupt and trying to cover their own asses. Anyway, whatever the military court said does not change the reality of the situation. > Which is what happens when you're in the armed forces and have to deal with justice. Yes, and I am against that as the objective of such "courts" is to do the military's bidding (which is to unfairly punish whistle-blowers and give lighter punishments to war criminals).

shadowgovt 7y ago
> Stealing implies that the original is gone in everyday speech. "Data theft" is understood to mean illicit copying, with no assumption that originals were destroyed. In everyday speech, "stealing data" implies unauthorized copies. There are advantages to controlling the terminology in a narrative, but the ship has sailed on this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_theft
mariorossi666 7y ago
> It would certainly be stealing if she deleted the documents in the server afterwards, which she did not Again, not a lawyer, not trying to counter you personally, but if someone clones my credit card and take money from it, it is stealing, even if the card is still in my pocket. If someone use my bank's password to transfer funds to his account, it is stealing, even if my account is still in my possess. > "The military court claims that she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect" That translates to "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." because that's what a court does, it establish the facts, unless we prove the court-martial framed Mannings for something she did not do. If I'm sentenced by a court for fraud, it means I committed fraud, unless I prove the court is wrong. Saying "the court says that X did that" and "X did that" it's the same thing. > which is to unfairly punish whistle-blowers and give lighter punishments to war criminals I agree it is unfair, but the military know how it is, it's not something special to Mannings's case.
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  > it is stealing I would disagree (although it is closer to the definition of thieft than stealing data is as you lose the ability to withdraw the money). > That translates to "technically she stole classified documents and betrayed her country that she swore to protect." No, it doesn't. The "court" could as well say "the sun rotates around earth and the moon is made out of cheese", it would not make it correct. > unless we prove the court-martial framed Mannings for something she did not do. Guilty until proven innocent, eh? > Saying "the court says that X did that" and "X did that" it's the same thing. You seem to be putting a lot of trust to the authority of the court. To me the court does not hold any more credibility than anyone else. > it's not something special to Mannings's case Not claiming otherwise.
  - mariorossi666 7y ago
    First of all, sorry, but I'm Italian and I don;t get all the nuances. The difference between stealing and theft was unknown to me. Secondly: no, it's not guilty until proven innocent, Manning has been proven guilty, she never denied of illegally obtaining those documents. third: in this case Manning confessed. There's no much debate we can do about it. fourth: no, I don't put any particular fate on courts, is just how the system works. I'm not a sex offender until a court says so. And after that people would say "he's a sex offender" not "the court said he's a sex offender". Unfortunately I don't make the rules.
efa 7y ago
So copying Coke's secret formula is not stealing?
- kempbellt 7y ago
  I'd say that it really depends on what you do with the information. If you find out that Coke products secretly include arsenic and you share that with the general public, I don't think anyone (besides Coke) would be calling you a thief. If you steal their secret formula so that you can profit off of it, or just because you want to share it with the world to break their monopoly of their own product, I would consider that stealing. Stealing a "secret" is a weird notion
- dependenttypes 7y ago
  I do not think so, no. Especially not if it was released to the world for free.