6 ms·

The Reason The Rich & Famous Commit Suicide

78 points by joshfraser 16y ago

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
keiferski 16y ago
Are suicide rates higher among 'the rich and famous' than among average people? If not, this really has no merit. People kill themselves because they have mental health issues, not because they come to realize that success isn't the secret to happiness.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- logjam 16y ago
  Probably many nuances to this question, but there is some literature out there indicating increased income is associated with increased suicide risk. One case control series reported in BMJ in a relatively large sample (~1500) found that "people with a history of mental illness and a high income are at greater risk of committing suicide than their lower income counterparts. This may be because richer people with a mental disorder feel more shameful, vulnerable, and stigmatised." http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/0.7.full http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/0.7.full From the paper: "In contrast to findings in the general population, the suicide risk for patients admitted to hospital with a mental illness fell significantly with decreasing income (P=0.0001)...In the adjusted analyses, a similar but less pronounced pattern was found in people who had never been admitted to hospital with a psychiatric disorder." http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/334.1.full http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/334.1.full
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - ramchip 16y ago
    > there is some literature out there indicating increased income is associated with increased suicide risk. As far as I can see, the study you cited does not support this. The quote mentions "In contrast to findings in the general population". On the same page, a little further, it is written: "There is clear evidence from person based and ecological studies that relative poverty is associated with an increased risk of suicide." (with a couple citations)
    - ekanes 16y ago
      Just pointing out that relative poverty and relative wealth could both come with increased risk of suicide.
    - ekanes 16y ago
      Just pointing out that relative poverty and relative wealth could both come with increased risk of suicide.
- kia 16y ago
  I don't know about rich/poor suicide rates but in developed/developing countries the suicide rates are higher than in undeveloped world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...
  - mthoms 16y ago
    Correlation does not equal causation. From glancing at that chart, there also appear to be correlations with religion and distance from the equator (i.e. regions having more or less daily sunlight).
    - rdtsc 16y ago
      True, but it is still an interesting link. I wonder if it is because of the isolation and the breaking of family ties in a developing world, which is is linked to the level of mobility and also with culture.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- someone1 16y ago
  Obviously this is a throwaway account for possibly obvious reason that I don't wish anyone in my life to know this... yada yada yah.... ... anyway, I'd like to add to your comment about people killing themselves because they have mental health issues. Please note this isn't some attack on you and it isn't aimed solely at you it just happens that your comment raised was relevant. It strikes me as odd(not really) that people think that just because you would dare do such a think that you must be mentally ill or be on drugs etc. That is sometimes not the case. I'd describe myself as generally happy and a nice person to be around(this is what I've actually been told) but to be honest I don't want to be here, I never have and can't wait to go. It's possibly hard for you and most people to understand but when you feel out of place often you just want to leave. To give you some context; I don't live luxurious life and I actually don't want one I often give-away most of the extra money I have but I still live comfortably. I love my job and the people I work with. I'm not the greatest communicator - it's not really a problem I just don't like interacting with people (I prefer to listen and observe). Yet I've always had close friends and is always popular with everyone everywhere I go(numerous schools, university, work). By now you probably are guessing that the way I'd like the world to be (simple, happy and loving, etc.) isn't the way the world is, and that's very much the reason I don't want to be here. As I said I just don't feel like I belong here and I don't want to be here, if it were not for the fact that people would be hurt I'd be gone a long time ago. In the past I've talked about my views of life in a discussion similar to this, I asked if that means I also and I also had a mental illness that was causing me to think like this and I was told that yes I do. But noone can tell me how or why that answer is a 'yes'. Perhaps you can, provide a reason for a yes or no nswer, perhaps not but I'll ask away and see what happens. With the facts given above, is it not possible that I'm just one of those people that see life differently from the norm. Do I have a mental illness? can you give a reason why you think I do(or don't)?
  - ntoshev 16y ago
    Why do you care if you have mental illness or not? Either way, you have a bit different perspective on the world from everyone else, drugs could make you feel better, etc. Mental illness is just a label. Try talking to your close friends about how the world is and how you'd like it to be (no need to get into details about leaving it). Maybe you'll find you can do something about it, albeit small.
- foljs 16y ago
  > Are suicide rates higher among 'the rich and famous' than among average people? If not, this really has no merit. Who said it has to be higher for this article to has merit? This article talks about "WHY the rich & famous commit suicide" not "IN WHAT NUMBERS the rich & famous commit suicide". What makes the question interesting is that most intuitively believe that a "rich and famous" would have no reason to contemplate suicide. > People kill themselves because they have mental health issues Huh? Who said mental health issues are the only (or even a major) cause of suicide? In contrast to this, at least the article puts forward a reasoning, doesn't state its premise as a matter of fact.
techiferous 16y ago
About fame: I consider being famous a curse. If you are a celebrity you have no privacy. You can't go to a restaurant without noticing the people whispering about you. At least that's how I would imagine it would be. I think fame within your field is best. Take DHH, for example. He's got a great reputation as a programmer but he can still eat his lunch in peace.
- staunch 16y ago
  > Take DHH, for example. He's got a great reputation as a programmer but he can still eat his lunch in peace. Oh really? http://37assets.s3.amazonaws.com/svn/newofficeshots/_3144012442.jpg http://37assets.s3.amazonaws.com/svn/newofficeshots/_3144012...
  - ekanes 16y ago
    Looks pretty peaceful. ;)
    - DarrenLehane 16y ago
      The two guys at the table are whispering about him.
joshzayin 16y ago
The source poem the embedded song references (by Edwin Arlington Robinson): (\ns for stanza breaks) Richard Cory Whenever Richard Cory went down town, We people on the pavement looked at him: He was a gentleman from sole to crown, Clean-favoured and imperially slim. (\n) And he was always quietly arrayed, And he was always human when he talked; But still he fluttered pulses when he said, "Good Morning!" and he glittered when he walked. (\n) And he was rich, yes, richer than a king, And admirably schooled in every grace: In fine -- we thought that he was everything To make us wish that we were in his place. (\n) So on we worked and waited for the light, And went without the meat and cursed the bread, And Richard Cory, one calm summer night, Went home and put a bullet in his head.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
sliverstorm 16y ago
as fruitless as those dreams might be, they still give us hope This is why I prefer befriending gorgeous women I could never date to avoiding them to save myself the longing. When I was younger, I thought the success was the best part. Now I've come to feel the longing and dreaming of success to be all the sweeter.
richcollins 16y ago
Sure this has been posted here to death, but its apropos none the less: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0
- sambeau 16y ago
  I had never seen that so am thankful that you did.
flipside 16y ago
This is an example of the gap between what people think should make them happy and what actually will. Once upon a time, I thought I could be happy if did the things that seemed to make others happy. When I realized I couldn't find happiness that way, I grew depressed because I had run out of excuses. I'm lucky in that I eventually discovered a path to true happiness but I can appreciate the terror of reaching a dead end and losing all hope. Moral of the story, do what makes you happy, not what you think should make you happy.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jodrellblank 16y ago
I don't want to get into the habit of linking to my own comments, but I posted this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2082515 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2082515 in the Bill Zeller suicide discussion and think it's related. TL;DR: happiness is in your head. If you have money and still aren't happy, the next step is not "kill yourself" it is examine your head to work out how to be happy. If you dedicated years of your life to making money in order to be happy then it was misdirected effort, you should have spent the effort directly on happy. Working out how you can be happy and changing yourself so you can be, and are. Biochemical/neural/medical disorders aside, that is.
- btmorex 16y ago
  TL;DR: happiness is in your head. If you have money and still aren't happy, the next step is not "kill yourself" it is examine your head to work out how to be happy. If you dedicated years of your life to making money in order to be happy then it was misdirected effort, you should have spent the effort directly on happy. Working out how you can be happy and changing yourself so you can be, and are. In my experience, people kill themselves because they've already spent years or decades trying to find out how to be happy or even normal. Eventually, they give up hope and that is what leads to suicide.
  - megablast 16y ago
    Is that true, or are people just trying to make themselves happy using the most obvious methods, ones that make other people happy, and it fails for them. It is not easy going against the grain, doing stuff that makes you happy that everybody else would laugh at.
  - jodrellblank 16y ago
    I accept that's what they would claim to be doing, but I don't accept that's what they were actually doing. Not really. You know how some people start startups and spend their time registering a company and designing a logo and imagining features and so on? Because they think that's what starting a business is, what it should be? But that's not how to actually start a successful business, building something which people value and then getting people to use it is how to actually start a successful business.
jhamburger 16y ago
At this point in my life I would really hate to come into a large sum of money all at once, like from an inheritance or lottery. Not that I don't care about money, because I do- But for me most of the pleasure is in working towards goals, watching numbers in accounts grow new digits, gradually being able to afford more and better things. I enjoy money the most in terms of 'keeping score' of your professional life, to suddenly be a multimillionaire would be like skipping past the whole game straight to polishing the trophy.
- Snoddas 16y ago
  Sounds selfish. You'd rather work for a couple of decades and get your millions later than giving your family the best possible healthcare and education now. (And the possibility to work less to spend time with them) Or perhaps you are just single with no wish of a family
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  This is how I feel as well, although if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I'd refuse that influx either. Fortunately, my relatives aren't wealthy and I don't pay the lottery, so I'm probably not at great risk of sudden undeserved wealth.
- maeon3 16y ago
  If you are thinking about this before you come into wealth then it sounds like you are the type of person to manage money well and use that wealth to create systems which not only edify your own life, but the lives of hundreds/thousands of others. If only all lottery winners would ask these introspective questions before they won the lottery, they wouldn't all go broke and be miserable after 5 years.
jodrellblank 16y ago
What about rich heiresses with everything in the world available to buy, who still feel unhappy? Perhaps they can't get themselves into satisfying romantic relationships. One way or another, they don't know how to use their money to create happiness - they lack the expertise in hedonic psychology and/or self-awareness and/or simple competence. So they're constantly unhappy - and they blame it on existential angst, because they've already solved the only problem they know how to solve. They already have enough money and they've already bought all the toys. Clearly, if there's still a problem, it's because life is meaningless. [..] But, mostly, I suspect that when people complain about the empty meaningless void, it is because they have at least one problem that they aren't thinking about solving - perhaps because they never identified it. http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/
lionhearted 16y ago
I'd recommend everyone study a little biochemistry/neurochemistry. It's one of those areas where a little bit of knowledge can pay huge dividends. After you learn a little bit, you start to think, "Duh, of course more external trappings don't keep jacking up your serotonin/dopamine/etc." In fact, the more I learn of it, the more I reject pursuing "low happinesses" - biochemical mix-based - as any more important than respiration or circulation or immune system. Very important towards surviving, but as a health/pragmatic note, not a meaning of life. It's liberating dismissing biochemical happiness as a key goal, and freeing my mind to work on more interesting things.
- zackattack 16y ago
  External trappings can easily keep jacking up your serotonin/dopamine.
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    From my understanding, not beyond a certain fairly low point where you max out.
    - joshkaufman 16y ago
      And even when they do, the rush quickly fades. Hence the "hedonic treadmill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
      - zackattack 16y ago
        I'm not talking about major positive events, I'm talking about wealth enabling you to create sustainable conditions.
      - ippisl 16y ago
        I think the trick here is to work towards many small rewards , not a large one. this way , when the rush from one reward fades , you grab another one.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
bane 16y ago
Money can't buy happiness, but it sure can buy a close approximation. Perhaps when we can no longer fantasize that our approximation isn't really fulfilling our needs, we realize that we've been leaving our needs unattended for too long. And it seems to far to reach back into our lives and fix those things, the easier path may just be "out".
ascuttlefish 16y ago
I find it hard to believe that there's One Reason the rich and famous commit suicide. I think this essay reveals a fair bit more about the author and his take on richness and famousness than it does about the true motivations of the suicidal.
- keefe 16y ago
  I think the various specific reasons can be generalized to the idea that money can buy happiness but it can't buy sanity.
  - ascuttlefish 16y ago
    Assuming of course that there are no specific reasons unrelated to money that could drive people to blackest despair. That a person is rich and famous is likely to be, in my humble and unexpert opinion, tangential to the problems that might make them suicidal. The tendency toward suicide is too complicated to generalize to a point about riches, I think.
    - keefe 16y ago
      Riches and suicidal problems aren't orthogonal issues. If you have enough money, then there are no external checks on your behavior. This allows negative traits to expand and if the wealthy person does not have a high enough level of reflectivity to self modify, then in many cases negative traits lead to internal dissonance and self destructive behavior.
      - ascuttlefish 16y ago
        That is definitely one of many ways a person can self-destruct, and it is indeed related to being wealthy and perhaps famous. But there are other motives that could explain suicides that don't involve money. I'm not saying they suicidal tendencies and wealth orthogonal (disclosure: I had to look that up :), but they're not always, uh, parallel either. Say for example you have someone who's been heavily goal oriented their entire life, but when they achieve their goals--of wealth and fame, or maybe just to be a hell of an entrepreneur, or something that has a side-effect of wealth and fame--they are completely unprepared for the emptiness and lack of purpose they now face. It could be argued that they face a despair unrelated to their wealth and riches but rather to the way they structured and lived their lives. (There's some interesting passages in David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest about this.) I don't disagree with you w/r/t wealth being a possible contributor to the motivations for suicide, but I believe that there are as many reasons a person could kill themselves as we can imagine, only some of which might involve their richness and famousness. Suicide is a dark, multi-tentacled thing.

78 points by joshfraser 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Are suicide rates higher among 'the rich and famous' than among average people? If not, this really has no merit. People kill themselves because they have mental health issues, not because they come to realize that success isn't the secret to happiness.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
logjam 16y ago
Probably many nuances to this question, but there is some literature out there indicating increased income is associated with increased suicide risk. One case control series reported in BMJ in a relatively large sample (~1500) found that "people with a history of mental illness and a high income are at greater risk of committing suicide than their lower income counterparts. This may be because richer people with a mental disorder feel more shameful, vulnerable, and stigmatised." http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/0.7.full http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/0.7.full From the paper: "In contrast to findings in the general population, the suicide risk for patients admitted to hospital with a mental illness fell significantly with decreasing income (P=0.0001)...In the adjusted analyses, a similar but less pronounced pattern was found in people who had never been admitted to hospital with a psychiatric disorder." http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/334.1.full http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7282/334.1.full
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- ramchip 16y ago
  > there is some literature out there indicating increased income is associated with increased suicide risk. As far as I can see, the study you cited does not support this. The quote mentions "In contrast to findings in the general population". On the same page, a little further, it is written: "There is clear evidence from person based and ecological studies that relative poverty is associated with an increased risk of suicide." (with a couple citations)
  - ekanes 16y ago
    Just pointing out that relative poverty and relative wealth could both come with increased risk of suicide.
  - ekanes 16y ago
    Just pointing out that relative poverty and relative wealth could both come with increased risk of suicide.
kia 16y ago
I don't know about rich/poor suicide rates but in developed/developing countries the suicide rates are higher than in undeveloped world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...
- mthoms 16y ago
  Correlation does not equal causation. From glancing at that chart, there also appear to be correlations with religion and distance from the equator (i.e. regions having more or less daily sunlight).
  - rdtsc 16y ago
    True, but it is still an interesting link. I wonder if it is because of the isolation and the breaking of family ties in a developing world, which is is linked to the level of mobility and also with culture.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
someone1 16y ago
Obviously this is a throwaway account for possibly obvious reason that I don't wish anyone in my life to know this... yada yada yah.... ... anyway, I'd like to add to your comment about people killing themselves because they have mental health issues. Please note this isn't some attack on you and it isn't aimed solely at you it just happens that your comment raised was relevant. It strikes me as odd(not really) that people think that just because you would dare do such a think that you must be mentally ill or be on drugs etc. That is sometimes not the case. I'd describe myself as generally happy and a nice person to be around(this is what I've actually been told) but to be honest I don't want to be here, I never have and can't wait to go. It's possibly hard for you and most people to understand but when you feel out of place often you just want to leave. To give you some context; I don't live luxurious life and I actually don't want one I often give-away most of the extra money I have but I still live comfortably. I love my job and the people I work with. I'm not the greatest communicator - it's not really a problem I just don't like interacting with people (I prefer to listen and observe). Yet I've always had close friends and is always popular with everyone everywhere I go(numerous schools, university, work). By now you probably are guessing that the way I'd like the world to be (simple, happy and loving, etc.) isn't the way the world is, and that's very much the reason I don't want to be here. As I said I just don't feel like I belong here and I don't want to be here, if it were not for the fact that people would be hurt I'd be gone a long time ago. In the past I've talked about my views of life in a discussion similar to this, I asked if that means I also and I also had a mental illness that was causing me to think like this and I was told that yes I do. But noone can tell me how or why that answer is a 'yes'. Perhaps you can, provide a reason for a yes or no nswer, perhaps not but I'll ask away and see what happens. With the facts given above, is it not possible that I'm just one of those people that see life differently from the norm. Do I have a mental illness? can you give a reason why you think I do(or don't)?
- ntoshev 16y ago
  Why do you care if you have mental illness or not? Either way, you have a bit different perspective on the world from everyone else, drugs could make you feel better, etc. Mental illness is just a label. Try talking to your close friends about how the world is and how you'd like it to be (no need to get into details about leaving it). Maybe you'll find you can do something about it, albeit small.
foljs 16y ago
> Are suicide rates higher among 'the rich and famous' than among average people? If not, this really has no merit. Who said it has to be higher for this article to has merit? This article talks about "WHY the rich & famous commit suicide" not "IN WHAT NUMBERS the rich & famous commit suicide". What makes the question interesting is that most intuitively believe that a "rich and famous" would have no reason to contemplate suicide. > People kill themselves because they have mental health issues Huh? Who said mental health issues are the only (or even a major) cause of suicide? In contrast to this, at least the article puts forward a reasoning, doesn't state its premise as a matter of fact.

techiferous 16y ago

About fame: I consider being famous a curse. If you are a celebrity you have no privacy. You can't go to a restaurant without noticing the people whispering about you. At least that's how I would imagine it would be. I think fame within your field is best. Take DHH, for example. He's got a great reputation as a programmer but he can still eat his lunch in peace.

staunch 16y ago
> Take DHH, for example. He's got a great reputation as a programmer but he can still eat his lunch in peace. Oh really? http://37assets.s3.amazonaws.com/svn/newofficeshots/_3144012442.jpg http://37assets.s3.amazonaws.com/svn/newofficeshots/_3144012...
- ekanes 16y ago
  Looks pretty peaceful. ;)
  - DarrenLehane 16y ago
    The two guys at the table are whispering about him.

joshzayin 16y ago

The source poem the embedded song references (by Edwin Arlington Robinson): (\ns for stanza breaks) Richard Cory Whenever Richard Cory went down town, We people on the pavement looked at him: He was a gentleman from sole to crown, Clean-favoured and imperially slim. (\n) And he was always quietly arrayed, And he was always human when he talked; But still he fluttered pulses when he said, "Good Morning!" and he glittered when he walked. (\n) And he was rich, yes, richer than a king, And admirably schooled in every grace: In fine -- we thought that he was everything To make us wish that we were in his place. (\n) So on we worked and waited for the light, And went without the meat and cursed the bread, And Richard Cory, one calm summer night, Went home and put a bullet in his head.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

sliverstorm 16y ago

as fruitless as those dreams might be, they still give us hope This is why I prefer befriending gorgeous women I could never date to avoiding them to save myself the longing. When I was younger, I thought the success was the best part. Now I've come to feel the longing and dreaming of success to be all the sweeter.

richcollins 16y ago

Sure this has been posted here to death, but its apropos none the less: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGoTmNU_5A0

sambeau 16y ago
I had never seen that so am thankful that you did.

flipside 16y ago

This is an example of the gap between what people think should make them happy and what actually will. Once upon a time, I thought I could be happy if did the things that seemed to make others happy. When I realized I couldn't find happiness that way, I grew depressed because I had run out of excuses. I'm lucky in that I eventually discovered a path to true happiness but I can appreciate the terror of reaching a dead end and losing all hope. Moral of the story, do what makes you happy, not what you think should make you happy.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

jodrellblank 16y ago

I don't want to get into the habit of linking to my own comments, but I posted this: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2082515 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2082515 in the Bill Zeller suicide discussion and think it's related. TL;DR: happiness is in your head. If you have money and still aren't happy, the next step is not "kill yourself" it is examine your head to work out how to be happy. If you dedicated years of your life to making money in order to be happy then it was misdirected effort, you should have spent the effort directly on happy. Working out how you can be happy and changing yourself so you can be, and are. Biochemical/neural/medical disorders aside, that is.

btmorex 16y ago
TL;DR: happiness is in your head. If you have money and still aren't happy, the next step is not "kill yourself" it is examine your head to work out how to be happy. If you dedicated years of your life to making money in order to be happy then it was misdirected effort, you should have spent the effort directly on happy. Working out how you can be happy and changing yourself so you can be, and are. In my experience, people kill themselves because they've already spent years or decades trying to find out how to be happy or even normal. Eventually, they give up hope and that is what leads to suicide.
- megablast 16y ago
  Is that true, or are people just trying to make themselves happy using the most obvious methods, ones that make other people happy, and it fails for them. It is not easy going against the grain, doing stuff that makes you happy that everybody else would laugh at.
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  I accept that's what they would claim to be doing, but I don't accept that's what they were actually doing. Not really. You know how some people start startups and spend their time registering a company and designing a logo and imagining features and so on? Because they think that's what starting a business is, what it should be? But that's not how to actually start a successful business, building something which people value and then getting people to use it is how to actually start a successful business.

jhamburger 16y ago

At this point in my life I would really hate to come into a large sum of money all at once, like from an inheritance or lottery. Not that I don't care about money, because I do- But for me most of the pleasure is in working towards goals, watching numbers in accounts grow new digits, gradually being able to afford more and better things. I enjoy money the most in terms of 'keeping score' of your professional life, to suddenly be a multimillionaire would be like skipping past the whole game straight to polishing the trophy.

Snoddas 16y ago
Sounds selfish. You'd rather work for a couple of decades and get your millions later than giving your family the best possible healthcare and education now. (And the possibility to work less to spend time with them) Or perhaps you are just single with no wish of a family
ryanwaggoner 16y ago
This is how I feel as well, although if I'm honest with myself, I don't think I'd refuse that influx either. Fortunately, my relatives aren't wealthy and I don't pay the lottery, so I'm probably not at great risk of sudden undeserved wealth.
maeon3 16y ago
If you are thinking about this before you come into wealth then it sounds like you are the type of person to manage money well and use that wealth to create systems which not only edify your own life, but the lives of hundreds/thousands of others. If only all lottery winners would ask these introspective questions before they won the lottery, they wouldn't all go broke and be miserable after 5 years.

jodrellblank 16y ago

What about rich heiresses with everything in the world available to buy, who still feel unhappy? Perhaps they can't get themselves into satisfying romantic relationships. One way or another, they don't know how to use their money to create happiness - they lack the expertise in hedonic psychology and/or self-awareness and/or simple competence. So they're constantly unhappy - and they blame it on existential angst, because they've already solved the only problem they know how to solve. They already have enough money and they've already bought all the toys. Clearly, if there's still a problem, it's because life is meaningless. [..] But, mostly, I suspect that when people complain about the empty meaningless void, it is because they have at least one problem that they aren't thinking about solving - perhaps because they never identified it. http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/sc/existential_angst_factory/

lionhearted 16y ago

I'd recommend everyone study a little biochemistry/neurochemistry. It's one of those areas where a little bit of knowledge can pay huge dividends. After you learn a little bit, you start to think, "Duh, of course more external trappings don't keep jacking up your serotonin/dopamine/etc." In fact, the more I learn of it, the more I reject pursuing "low happinesses" - biochemical mix-based - as any more important than respiration or circulation or immune system. Very important towards surviving, but as a health/pragmatic note, not a meaning of life. It's liberating dismissing biochemical happiness as a key goal, and freeing my mind to work on more interesting things.

zackattack 16y ago
External trappings can easily keep jacking up your serotonin/dopamine.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  From my understanding, not beyond a certain fairly low point where you max out.
  - joshkaufman 16y ago
    And even when they do, the rush quickly fades. Hence the "hedonic treadmill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
    - zackattack 16y ago
      I'm not talking about major positive events, I'm talking about wealth enabling you to create sustainable conditions.
    - ippisl 16y ago
      I think the trick here is to work towards many small rewards , not a large one. this way , when the rush from one reward fades , you grab another one.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

bane 16y ago

Money can't buy happiness, but it sure can buy a close approximation. Perhaps when we can no longer fantasize that our approximation isn't really fulfilling our needs, we realize that we've been leaving our needs unattended for too long. And it seems to far to reach back into our lives and fix those things, the easier path may just be "out".

ascuttlefish 16y ago

I find it hard to believe that there's One Reason the rich and famous commit suicide. I think this essay reveals a fair bit more about the author and his take on richness and famousness than it does about the true motivations of the suicidal.

keefe 16y ago
I think the various specific reasons can be generalized to the idea that money can buy happiness but it can't buy sanity.
- ascuttlefish 16y ago
  Assuming of course that there are no specific reasons unrelated to money that could drive people to blackest despair. That a person is rich and famous is likely to be, in my humble and unexpert opinion, tangential to the problems that might make them suicidal. The tendency toward suicide is too complicated to generalize to a point about riches, I think.
  - keefe 16y ago
    Riches and suicidal problems aren't orthogonal issues. If you have enough money, then there are no external checks on your behavior. This allows negative traits to expand and if the wealthy person does not have a high enough level of reflectivity to self modify, then in many cases negative traits lead to internal dissonance and self destructive behavior.
    - ascuttlefish 16y ago
      That is definitely one of many ways a person can self-destruct, and it is indeed related to being wealthy and perhaps famous. But there are other motives that could explain suicides that don't involve money. I'm not saying they suicidal tendencies and wealth orthogonal (disclosure: I had to look that up :), but they're not always, uh, parallel either. Say for example you have someone who's been heavily goal oriented their entire life, but when they achieve their goals--of wealth and fame, or maybe just to be a hell of an entrepreneur, or something that has a side-effect of wealth and fame--they are completely unprepared for the emptiness and lack of purpose they now face. It could be argued that they face a despair unrelated to their wealth and riches but rather to the way they structured and lived their lives. (There's some interesting passages in David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest about this.) I don't disagree with you w/r/t wealth being a possible contributor to the motivations for suicide, but I believe that there are as many reasons a person could kill themselves as we can imagine, only some of which might involve their richness and famousness. Suicide is a dark, multi-tentacled thing.