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Every time Al Jazeera is brought up, people claim that it is anti-semitic, racist, anti-US, etc. But to that I say: so what? Do you think Americans are that st

by ajays 16y ago

Every time Al Jazeera is brought up, people claim that it is anti-semitic, racist, anti-US, etc. But to that I say: so what? Do you think Americans are that stupid that they won't see antisemitism? Do you think we're little children who can't think for ourselves? As the old adage goes, "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". If Al Jazeera is indeed "the enemy", then all the more reason to make Al Jazeera widely available! Plus: when Al Jazeera started, the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. So while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ, they became biased and completely untrustworthy!! IMHO, this opposition to Al Jazeera comes from the fact that they (AJ) don't tow the 'company line'. There's a carefully crafted story around which news is reported in the US ("US = good; Middle-Easterners = uneducated religious bigots; Israelis = poor victims who can't do no wrong; etc." ) ; unfortunately for AJ, they refuse to follow this line and hence piss off powerful people here. And before someone starts putting words in my mouth: I support Israeli people, and want them to live secure, peaceful, happy lives in Israel. In other words: I support the Israeli people, but not necessarily the actions of their government.

mambodog 16y ago
As I mentioned below, I find it disingenuous that people often use the term 'anti-semitic' when they mean 'anti-Israel', as if any judgement on the actions of the state of Israel automatically implies hate of Jewish people.
- srean 16y ago
  Not only that. Jewish people are not the only Semites. Arabs are Semites too. The word anti-semitic has totally lost all of its literal meaning, much like the word hacker.
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    Antisemitism has never meant racism directed at Semitic peoples in general. It has a very specific meaning. Not only that, but 'hacker' doesn't have a literal etymological meaning ('hacker' is derived from...?). This whole comment thread has me extremely disappointed with HN.
  - amr 16y ago
    Anti-Semitism is a term that, in the western culture, is used to mean anti-jewish. When you treat it literally, you are ignoring a long and established history associated with it. See this for much more articulate explanation than mine: http://www.ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/2010/12/16/arabs_and_anti_semitism http://www.ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/2010/12/16/arabs_and_an... <quote> anti-Semitism is not the optimal term for anti-Jewish sentiment, among other things because there are other Semites than Jews, but it is the one we have, and comes with a long history and a well-established meaning. Rather than critiquing the term or coining a neologism to substitute for it, speakers of English should simply understand the term's history and commonly accepted definition and use it accordingly. </quote> edit: corrected typos
  - thomasz 16y ago
    This is -- pardon my french -- either the most dishonest or the most uninformed argument that has been made on this topic so far.
    - derleth 16y ago
      I don't think it's either, just a rant about how natural languages need to MAKE SENSE DAMMIT! It's a common failure among the half-educated.
      - srean 16y ago
        Heh! I had so far restrained myself from adding to the thread. But it tickles me a great deal to see how just an observation can fuel nay-saying and name calling. I never made a moral judgment and neither am I ignorant of the typical use of the word. But was not aware that such usage ruled out making observations that the well used and common rule of "anti-blah" does not apply in this case. Then I added another example were words sometimes do not mean what they are supposed to mean. Oh the outrage, I wonder were it comes from :). <tongue in cheek> If usage trumps correctness then English with an Indian accent is the canonical accent. After all there are more who use it. </tongue in cheek>
        demallien 16y ago
        * If usage trumps correctness then English with an Indian accent is the canonical accent. After all there are more who use it.* I know it's tongue in cheek and all, but I've heard this repeated a few too many times recently, so for the record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_num... Summary: 226 million "native" speakers of English, plus 90 million with English as a second language. I'd suggest that the canonical English accent is actually American. And whilst it is true that India will probably overtake the US in this regard in the not too distant future, they too will probably be eclipsed by the Chinese (http://www.economist.com/node/6803197?story_id=6803197 http://www.economist.com/node/6803197?story_id=6803197) before that happens. Regardless, the traditional anglo-saxon countries will hold sway as the main proponents of English for a long time, as aside from the US there is also the UK (60-odd million), Canada(35 million), Australia(20-odd million), New Zealand (5 million), and South Africa (50 million) to throw into the mix, giving a total of somewhere around 500 million native speakers.
  - chc 16y ago
    It's more like "black," which comes from a PIE root meaning "to burn," and is thus closely related to the word "bleach." You can't look at the roots of a word and declare it "wrong" because it doesn't precisely match the original usage. That would wipe out a lot of everyday language.
- jacobmg 16y ago
  Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Jewish, but some can be. Just because someone claims an anti-Israel group is anti-Jewish, don't assume that they would whitewash all Israel critics as anti-Jewish.
- endtime 16y ago
  It's obviously not the case that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. However, it should be equally obvious that some is; surely the anti-Semites that do exist will criticize Israel. So the question is how to distinguish the legitimate criticism from the anti-Semitic criticism. I don't have an answer to this question, unfortunately. One (flawed) test that's often proposed is to see whether the criticism is proportional to Israel's wrongdoings as compared to the wrongdoings of other countries. In any case, while I agree with what you're saying, quite often people say pretty much the same thing as a sort of misdirection to deflect criticism of their own criticism of Israel, no matter how unfair or misleading or just plain dishonest it is. If you go read some reddit comments on Israel you'll see anti-Semitism mentioned at least an order of magnitude more frequently by Israel's critics than by Israel's defenders.
  - srean 16y ago
    I criticize the Indian government all the time. But I find it strange that for my criticisms to be taken seriously I also have to criticize all other countries equally. I may be the most anti Indian person in the world, but should that discredit my criticism if its valid ? I got thrown off by the terminology "anti-Semitic criticism". From the context it seems to mean: criticism by an "anti Semitic" person, you probably meant "criticism that has no truth in it". Why cloud matters then, with terminology that is already too loaded to begin with ?
    - endtime 16y ago
      Well, are you Indian or Pakistani? The unspoken condition of that test (which I already stated is imperfect) is that the person not have a direct personal connection to that country. I wouldn't necessarily call a Palestinian preoccupied with criticizing Israel anti-Semitic; I'd be a little more inclined to wonder about the motives of, say, a Belgian.
      - ern 16y ago
        George Clooney is an American of Irish descent. Does his interest in Sudan (to which he seems to have little "personal connection") make you wonder about his motives?
tkahn6 16y ago
> when Al Jazeera started, the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. And many people believe that the BBC is biased when it comes to covering Israel. For example: http://honestreporting.com/bbc-responds-to-flotilla-inquiry-complaints/ http://honestreporting.com/bbc-responds-to-flotilla-inquiry-...
- srean 16y ago
  True, but pick any notion and there would be some people who believe that. The question is whether the belief is correct or not. Correctness is hard to determine in the absolutes. It is a skill that adults usually acquire to a lesser or greater degree from experience and corroboration. Since it's a difficult skill, like it or not the identity of the group espousing the belief does play a role in coloring the credibility. It is one of the multitude of variables by which human's judge potential correctness. My personal coefficient for BBC is higher than most of US cable news (and honestreporting.com as well). The coefficients are issue specific too, though there is a certain issue independent component that different issues inherit from the base. It so happens that there are issues that I care about, for which there are no US main stream source that has significantly positive coefficient. It is for (not uncommon) situations like this that I need alternative sources like Al Jazeera. In addition to un-affiliated blogs
  - tkahn6 16y ago
    Quite an intelligent response. I appreciate it. If you're looking for a solid US based news agency, I would suggest PBS news. They have a pretty high 'coefficient' in my book. They've been covering the various Arab riots quite extensively. Main site: http://www.pbs.org/newshour http://www.pbs.org/newshour Nightly news: http://video.pbs.org/program/979359630/ http://video.pbs.org/program/979359630/
- ajays 16y ago
  That may be; but the point is: no one is calling for banning the same BBC here (in the US). Here we accept BBC with open arms, NPR and PBS carry BBC news. I was calling out this double-standard.
jacobmg 16y ago
>Do you think Americans are that stupid that they won't see antisemitism? Do you think we're little children who can't think for ourselves? Well that's the thing, perhaps those who have had the opportunity to carry Al Jazeera decided not to on the prediction that it would not be watched, and decided to avoid any financial loss by not taking the risk. >Plus: when Al Jazeera started, the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. So while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ, they became biased and completely untrustworthy!! No one ever said the BBC was immune from being biased. You're right, it's unlikely that the same people automatically went from being non-biased to biased, so if Al-Jazeera is biased, that just means the BBC had been biased all along.
endtime 16y ago
I agree with the thrust of your comment in general; however, you're mistaken on one point: >the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. So while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ, they became biased and completely untrustworthy!! The BBC is well-known for anti-Israel bias, and there have been investigations to that effect. Here's an article about a long-running legal battle to get the BBC to disclose a report on its ME coverage: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/11/balen-report-bbc-timeline http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/11/balen-report-bbc...; here's some background info on said report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report. Edit: I honestly don't care about my HN karma, but I am curious to know why this was downvoted. I provided relevant information in a civil manner. I'd really feel better if someone could provide an explanation other than that people are using HN downvotes like reddit downvotes now. :/
- srean 16y ago
  I notice that your comment has been downvoted, so lest you think so, it is not me. I followed your links, and what I found is this: A media corporation refuses to disclose a report on an internal investigation on how it conducts its affairs. Yes, it bothers me that a public service body is stonewalling about an internal report. But when I transfer the setup to US say, it is not what I would call, unheard of. I am certainly willing to concede, that it is not transparent, but isnt calling them to possess a "well-known" anti-Israel bias exaggerated ?
  - endtime 16y ago
    Well, I was trying to err on the side of caution with my sources, and I may have overdone it. There are more direct articles but from less reputable sources, like this one [1]. I don't know how to justify that something is well-known; Bing has 12 million hits for "bbc anti-israel" (without quotes), if that helps. BTW, the BBC is a public organization, not a private corporation. It's estimated that they spent 200,000 pounds to keep the report from being disclosed. I don't know why they'd spend that kind of money to hide a report that didn't reveal bias - though I'm open to alternative explanations. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-anti-Israel-bias-stay-secret.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-a...
gaius 16y ago
while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ The BBC is generally regarded as being anti-Israel: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bbc-fights-to-suppress-internal-report-into-allegations-of-bias-against-israel-442150.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bbc-fights-to-sup... When people say a news source is "unbiased" they really mean "agrees with me".
- varjag 16y ago
  But you see, everyone has problems with BBC. Israeli think it's anti-Israel, Putin says it's anti-Russian. In reality though it's simply not pro-Israel or pro-Russian. Just telling the truth infuriates lots of people.
  - gaius 16y ago
    It is possible to be both anti-Israel and anti-Russian, y'know. The idea that the BBC is any more "truthy" than any other news source is laughable; they're all run by humans after all. And the BBC recruits most of its staff through one route, the media section in the Guardian, which no-one would claim is anything other than a left-wing paper. It could, for example, balance it out by recruiting 50% via the Graun's big rival, the Daily Mail, but it doesn't.
    - dasil003 16y ago
      So all news sources are equally truthy? There's no such thing as perfect objectivity, but there are shades of gray.
      - gaius 16y ago
        You need to look for a news source that is financially incentivized to do "just the facts". Organization such as Reuters, AP, AFP etc sell "raw news" to TV stations and newspapers, which then put their own editorial on it. The same Reuters feed goes into the BBC as goes into Sky News. So if you really care, just read Reuters and make up your own mind.
detokaal 16y ago
"Do you think Americans are that stupid that they won;t see antisemitism" Do you think we're little children who can't think for ourselves." Yes. To imply that the media has no influence on the general mass of population is ignorant at best. There is a reason most governments censor the media, seed the media with favorable information or outright ban them: they move people to action.

by ajays 16y ago

mambodog 16y ago

As I mentioned below, I find it disingenuous that people often use the term 'anti-semitic' when they mean 'anti-Israel', as if any judgement on the actions of the state of Israel automatically implies hate of Jewish people.

srean 16y ago
Not only that. Jewish people are not the only Semites. Arabs are Semites too. The word anti-semitic has totally lost all of its literal meaning, much like the word hacker.
- tkahn6 16y ago
  Antisemitism has never meant racism directed at Semitic peoples in general. It has a very specific meaning. Not only that, but 'hacker' doesn't have a literal etymological meaning ('hacker' is derived from...?). This whole comment thread has me extremely disappointed with HN.
- amr 16y ago
  Anti-Semitism is a term that, in the western culture, is used to mean anti-jewish. When you treat it literally, you are ignoring a long and established history associated with it. See this for much more articulate explanation than mine: http://www.ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/2010/12/16/arabs_and_anti_semitism http://www.ibishblog.com/blog/hibish/2010/12/16/arabs_and_an... <quote> anti-Semitism is not the optimal term for anti-Jewish sentiment, among other things because there are other Semites than Jews, but it is the one we have, and comes with a long history and a well-established meaning. Rather than critiquing the term or coining a neologism to substitute for it, speakers of English should simply understand the term's history and commonly accepted definition and use it accordingly. </quote> edit: corrected typos
- thomasz 16y ago
  This is -- pardon my french -- either the most dishonest or the most uninformed argument that has been made on this topic so far.
  - derleth 16y ago
    I don't think it's either, just a rant about how natural languages need to MAKE SENSE DAMMIT! It's a common failure among the half-educated.
    - srean 16y ago
      Heh! I had so far restrained myself from adding to the thread. But it tickles me a great deal to see how just an observation can fuel nay-saying and name calling. I never made a moral judgment and neither am I ignorant of the typical use of the word. But was not aware that such usage ruled out making observations that the well used and common rule of "anti-blah" does not apply in this case. Then I added another example were words sometimes do not mean what they are supposed to mean. Oh the outrage, I wonder were it comes from :). <tongue in cheek> If usage trumps correctness then English with an Indian accent is the canonical accent. After all there are more who use it. </tongue in cheek>
      - demallien 16y ago
        * If usage trumps correctness then English with an Indian accent is the canonical accent. After all there are more who use it.* I know it's tongue in cheek and all, but I've heard this repeated a few too many times recently, so for the record: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_languages_by_num... Summary: 226 million "native" speakers of English, plus 90 million with English as a second language. I'd suggest that the canonical English accent is actually American. And whilst it is true that India will probably overtake the US in this regard in the not too distant future, they too will probably be eclipsed by the Chinese (http://www.economist.com/node/6803197?story_id=6803197 http://www.economist.com/node/6803197?story_id=6803197) before that happens. Regardless, the traditional anglo-saxon countries will hold sway as the main proponents of English for a long time, as aside from the US there is also the UK (60-odd million), Canada(35 million), Australia(20-odd million), New Zealand (5 million), and South Africa (50 million) to throw into the mix, giving a total of somewhere around 500 million native speakers.
- chc 16y ago
  It's more like "black," which comes from a PIE root meaning "to burn," and is thus closely related to the word "bleach." You can't look at the roots of a word and declare it "wrong" because it doesn't precisely match the original usage. That would wipe out a lot of everyday language.
jacobmg 16y ago
Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Jewish, but some can be. Just because someone claims an anti-Israel group is anti-Jewish, don't assume that they would whitewash all Israel critics as anti-Jewish.
endtime 16y ago
It's obviously not the case that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. However, it should be equally obvious that some is; surely the anti-Semites that do exist will criticize Israel. So the question is how to distinguish the legitimate criticism from the anti-Semitic criticism. I don't have an answer to this question, unfortunately. One (flawed) test that's often proposed is to see whether the criticism is proportional to Israel's wrongdoings as compared to the wrongdoings of other countries. In any case, while I agree with what you're saying, quite often people say pretty much the same thing as a sort of misdirection to deflect criticism of their own criticism of Israel, no matter how unfair or misleading or just plain dishonest it is. If you go read some reddit comments on Israel you'll see anti-Semitism mentioned at least an order of magnitude more frequently by Israel's critics than by Israel's defenders.
- srean 16y ago
  I criticize the Indian government all the time. But I find it strange that for my criticisms to be taken seriously I also have to criticize all other countries equally. I may be the most anti Indian person in the world, but should that discredit my criticism if its valid ? I got thrown off by the terminology "anti-Semitic criticism". From the context it seems to mean: criticism by an "anti Semitic" person, you probably meant "criticism that has no truth in it". Why cloud matters then, with terminology that is already too loaded to begin with ?
  - endtime 16y ago
    Well, are you Indian or Pakistani? The unspoken condition of that test (which I already stated is imperfect) is that the person not have a direct personal connection to that country. I wouldn't necessarily call a Palestinian preoccupied with criticizing Israel anti-Semitic; I'd be a little more inclined to wonder about the motives of, say, a Belgian.
    - ern 16y ago
      George Clooney is an American of Irish descent. Does his interest in Sudan (to which he seems to have little "personal connection") make you wonder about his motives?

tkahn6 16y ago

> when Al Jazeera started, the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. And many people believe that the BBC is biased when it comes to covering Israel. For example: http://honestreporting.com/bbc-responds-to-flotilla-inquiry-complaints/ http://honestreporting.com/bbc-responds-to-flotilla-inquiry-...

srean 16y ago
True, but pick any notion and there would be some people who believe that. The question is whether the belief is correct or not. Correctness is hard to determine in the absolutes. It is a skill that adults usually acquire to a lesser or greater degree from experience and corroboration. Since it's a difficult skill, like it or not the identity of the group espousing the belief does play a role in coloring the credibility. It is one of the multitude of variables by which human's judge potential correctness. My personal coefficient for BBC is higher than most of US cable news (and honestreporting.com as well). The coefficients are issue specific too, though there is a certain issue independent component that different issues inherit from the base. It so happens that there are issues that I care about, for which there are no US main stream source that has significantly positive coefficient. It is for (not uncommon) situations like this that I need alternative sources like Al Jazeera. In addition to un-affiliated blogs
- tkahn6 16y ago
  Quite an intelligent response. I appreciate it. If you're looking for a solid US based news agency, I would suggest PBS news. They have a pretty high 'coefficient' in my book. They've been covering the various Arab riots quite extensively. Main site: http://www.pbs.org/newshour http://www.pbs.org/newshour Nightly news: http://video.pbs.org/program/979359630/ http://video.pbs.org/program/979359630/
ajays 16y ago
That may be; but the point is: no one is calling for banning the same BBC here (in the US). Here we accept BBC with open arms, NPR and PBS carry BBC news. I was calling out this double-standard.

jacobmg 16y ago

>Do you think Americans are that stupid that they won't see antisemitism? Do you think we're little children who can't think for ourselves? Well that's the thing, perhaps those who have had the opportunity to carry Al Jazeera decided not to on the prediction that it would not be watched, and decided to avoid any financial loss by not taking the risk. >Plus: when Al Jazeera started, the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. So while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ, they became biased and completely untrustworthy!! No one ever said the BBC was immune from being biased. You're right, it's unlikely that the same people automatically went from being non-biased to biased, so if Al-Jazeera is biased, that just means the BBC had been biased all along.

endtime 16y ago

I agree with the thrust of your comment in general; however, you're mistaken on one point: >the staff was almost entirely made up of BBC MiddleEast service people. So while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ, they became biased and completely untrustworthy!! The BBC is well-known for anti-Israel bias, and there have been investigations to that effect. Here's an article about a long-running legal battle to get the BBC to disclose a report on its ME coverage: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/11/balen-report-bbc-timeline http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/11/balen-report-bbc...; here's some background info on said report: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report. Edit: I honestly don't care about my HN karma, but I am curious to know why this was downvoted. I provided relevant information in a civil manner. I'd really feel better if someone could provide an explanation other than that people are using HN downvotes like reddit downvotes now. :/

srean 16y ago
I notice that your comment has been downvoted, so lest you think so, it is not me. I followed your links, and what I found is this: A media corporation refuses to disclose a report on an internal investigation on how it conducts its affairs. Yes, it bothers me that a public service body is stonewalling about an internal report. But when I transfer the setup to US say, it is not what I would call, unheard of. I am certainly willing to concede, that it is not transparent, but isnt calling them to possess a "well-known" anti-Israel bias exaggerated ?
- endtime 16y ago
  Well, I was trying to err on the side of caution with my sources, and I may have overdone it. There are more direct articles but from less reputable sources, like this one [1]. I don't know how to justify that something is well-known; Bing has 12 million hits for "bbc anti-israel" (without quotes), if that helps. BTW, the BBC is a public organization, not a private corporation. It's estimated that they spent 200,000 pounds to keep the report from being disclosed. I don't know why they'd spend that kind of money to hide a report that didn't reveal bias - though I'm open to alternative explanations. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-anti-Israel-bias-stay-secret.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451138/Report-BBCs-a...

gaius 16y ago

while they worked for BBC, they were unbiased; but the moment they started working for AJ The BBC is generally regarded as being anti-Israel: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bbc-fights-to-suppress-internal-report-into-allegations-of-bias-against-israel-442150.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bbc-fights-to-sup... When people say a news source is "unbiased" they really mean "agrees with me".

varjag 16y ago
But you see, everyone has problems with BBC. Israeli think it's anti-Israel, Putin says it's anti-Russian. In reality though it's simply not pro-Israel or pro-Russian. Just telling the truth infuriates lots of people.
- gaius 16y ago
  It is possible to be both anti-Israel and anti-Russian, y'know. The idea that the BBC is any more "truthy" than any other news source is laughable; they're all run by humans after all. And the BBC recruits most of its staff through one route, the media section in the Guardian, which no-one would claim is anything other than a left-wing paper. It could, for example, balance it out by recruiting 50% via the Graun's big rival, the Daily Mail, but it doesn't.
  - dasil003 16y ago
    So all news sources are equally truthy? There's no such thing as perfect objectivity, but there are shades of gray.
    - gaius 16y ago
      You need to look for a news source that is financially incentivized to do "just the facts". Organization such as Reuters, AP, AFP etc sell "raw news" to TV stations and newspapers, which then put their own editorial on it. The same Reuters feed goes into the BBC as goes into Sky News. So if you really care, just read Reuters and make up your own mind.

detokaal 16y ago

"Do you think Americans are that stupid that they won;t see antisemitism" Do you think we're little children who can't think for ourselves." Yes. To imply that the media has no influence on the general mass of population is ignorant at best. There is a reason most governments censor the media, seed the media with favorable information or outright ban them: they move people to action.