5 ms·

Apple will never give you a modular, easy to repair system. It just isn't going to happen, time to move on.

ergothus 7y ago
While you make a solid point about likely behavior, I'm sure there are those that said Microsoft will never cooperate with Linux. "Never" is a bold word, and it's worth highlighting things like a hard-to-replace/repair keyboard to keep on that tiny bit of pressure to change (how often have you been in a meeting where "customers aren't asking for this" came up as a justification to not make a change?). Also, just to let people KNOW - when buying a laptop you may not be considering if the keyboard is easy to service. Plenty of developers on any given day are making their first foray into these sorts of decisions, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that which is obvious if you've been following for a decade but not if you're new to it.
- braythwayt 7y ago
  Perhaps another way to put it is, "This iteration of Apple will never..." Which carries with it a significant piece of information: Someone saying this is claiming that there is some structural or cultural obstacle, and that the company would have to change its nature in order to effect the requried change. That was the case with Microsoft and Linux as well.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  That's fair, but it would take a massive change in both consumer behavior and Apple's target audience to make something like this come about. But hey, ya never know.
  - chongli 7y ago
    Or perhaps a change in leadership at Apple. Never is a long time compared to the tenure of any exec.
    - dwoozle 7y ago
      Yep — hard to believe that Satya Nadella is only 5 years into the job at Microsoft. It’s like a completely different company.
jotm 7y ago
They 100% won't if people don't complain. But people complain, so there's still a chance.
- rstupek 7y ago
  Realistically the chance is slim. It's likely an ingrained Apple culture thing going all the way back to when Steve didn't even want the case of the Apple II to be able to be opened.
  - wasdfff 7y ago
    For a while they built computers to be servicable. See the ibook or the original unibody macbooks. It changed recently at least only in 2012.
    - readbeard 7y ago
      Or the Mac Pro. While it’s not a laptop, the original cheese grater Mac Pro is a delight to open up. It’s amazing to see what Apple can come up with when they make serviceability a central design goal. The new one looks nice too, though it seems significantly overpriced.
      - chrisweekly 7y ago
        Yes, this! I haven't even booted my ancient (2006?) mac pro in a couple years, but have kept it bc it's so easy to imagine happily rebuilding something modern inside it.
      - jcadam 7y ago
        The Powermac G3 and G4 towers were awesome. Just pull a lever and the side drops down. Everything is nice, neat, and accessible. The G5 towers were similarly functional and very nice as well, and the early Mac Pro towers were obviously based on the same design. It should also be noted that the old beige PowerMacs were no worse than PCs of similar vintage. There seems to have been a large cultural shift at Apple toward extreme form-over-function around the time of the intel transition. I still have to deal with Macs because my wife uses them, and they've only been getting worse. Personally, I've been on PCs running Linux for several years now.
tracker1 7y ago
I'd be surprised if within the next two years, the regular MBP is ARM, and the pro follows the next year. I've already abandoned my macs...
- ImprovedSilence 7y ago
  Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they go that way too. When I first heard that rumor, I thought "never!". But now I'm like... "hmm, hooray battery life, an OS that more fluidly switches from mobile to desktop, maybe not a bad option". Plus ARM is only getting faster/more powerful. Yeah yeah, apple will probably go the way of locking the OS down more, and thats a major buzkill/non-starter, but otherwise I think it's an intriguing concept. Convince me otherwise, I want to hear what huge drawbacks you see to having an ARM laptop.
  - SyneRyder 7y ago
    Microsoft already has ARM-based laptops, so we can see what some drawbacks to ARM might be. The Intel-compiled app compatibility is unbearably slow, despite them making a custom ARM chip to improve performance, and the better battery life isn't happening. The Verge could only get 5-6 hours of battery life on the ARM-based Surface Pro X. [1] Presumably Apple is working harder on fixing all of those things than Microsoft, but maybe issues like that are why we still haven't seen an ARM MacBook yet. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/5/20948092/microsoft-surface-pro-x-review-arm-windows-10-apps-features-specs-price https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/5/20948092/microsoft-surfac...
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Apple is pouring billions of dollars a year into making the best ARM chips on the market. I'm sure they can figure it out.
      - SpelingBeeChamp 7y ago
        I am skeptical of your "billions of dollars a year" claim. Source?
_ph_ 7y ago
A modular, easy to repair system would be great, but I would settle for a repairable system. That is, that a trained technician can perform the repairs in a reasonable timeframe without throwing components away, which are not defective. As long as the products are not repairable, we should call Apple out for not being as environment friendly, as they try to present themselves.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  They are repairable, just not at their stores. They do swaps at the stores and send out the old parts to be disassembled and remanufactured into warranty exchange parts. They are just as environmentally friendly as they present themselves.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Well, as I wrote, a technician should be able to repair it and that does not mean sending the device around for weeks. Availability of a device is an important thing if you use it for your work. Also, many "repairs" Apple offers are priced such, that quite often the device is totalled. A broken keyboard should cost $100, not >$600. A broken screen cable shouldn't cost > $800. A dead SSD should cost what an SSD does cost. If you throw away a machine, that for any other brand could have been quickly repaired because it is totalled, this is not environmental friendly, even if Apple recycles the aluminum afterwards.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      >a technician should be able to repair it Most people don't care one way or the other as long as they end up with a functioning machine. They don't care about how the wheels end up getting turned as long as they get turned. If anything, replacing a larger component rather than diagnosing and fixing individual components should be faster. If someone has to solder or work on transistors, your repair could definitely take weeks and that time only goes up with the number of repairs necessary for all customers. >If you throw away a machine If you throw away a machine, that's on you. Apple, and most other PC manufacturers, offer some kind of machine recycling. That process includes recycling the raw materials and disassembling and reusing components. Unless we're talking about machines that are 7+ years, those components can still be used for warranty repairs and other assemblies. It's exactly why Apple stops servicing devices that are that old and instead only offers recycling for them. When the warranty claims go down, the parts needed go down.
gregoriol 7y ago
Now that Jony Ive is clearly gone, who knows ;-)
mschuster91 7y ago
That depends. The EU is already implementing a right-to-repair law for appliances, it will only be a matter of time until this is extended to electronic devices such as laptops and smartphones. Apple will have two options then: drop out of the EU market (which they won't do, 500M consumers waiting to be fleeced) or follow the law.
- cooljacob204 7y ago
  I doubt it. They just won't be able to void warranties due to these kinds of laws. They are still free to design their electronics however they want.

While you make a solid point about likely behavior, I'm sure there are those that said Microsoft will never cooperate with Linux. "Never" is a bold word, and it's worth highlighting things like a hard-to-replace/repair keyboard to keep on that tiny bit of pressure to change (how often have you been in a meeting where "customers aren't asking for this" came up as a justification to not make a change?). Also, just to let people KNOW - when buying a laptop you may not be considering if the keyboard is easy to service. Plenty of developers on any given day are making their first foray into these sorts of decisions, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out that which is obvious if you've been following for a decade but not if you're new to it.

braythwayt 7y ago
Perhaps another way to put it is, "This iteration of Apple will never..." Which carries with it a significant piece of information: Someone saying this is claiming that there is some structural or cultural obstacle, and that the company would have to change its nature in order to effect the requried change. That was the case with Microsoft and Linux as well.
EpicEng 7y ago
That's fair, but it would take a massive change in both consumer behavior and Apple's target audience to make something like this come about. But hey, ya never know.
- chongli 7y ago
  Or perhaps a change in leadership at Apple. Never is a long time compared to the tenure of any exec.
  - dwoozle 7y ago
    Yep — hard to believe that Satya Nadella is only 5 years into the job at Microsoft. It’s like a completely different company.

jotm 7y ago

They 100% won't if people don't complain. But people complain, so there's still a chance.

rstupek 7y ago
Realistically the chance is slim. It's likely an ingrained Apple culture thing going all the way back to when Steve didn't even want the case of the Apple II to be able to be opened.
- wasdfff 7y ago
  For a while they built computers to be servicable. See the ibook or the original unibody macbooks. It changed recently at least only in 2012.
  - readbeard 7y ago
    Or the Mac Pro. While it’s not a laptop, the original cheese grater Mac Pro is a delight to open up. It’s amazing to see what Apple can come up with when they make serviceability a central design goal. The new one looks nice too, though it seems significantly overpriced.
    - chrisweekly 7y ago
      Yes, this! I haven't even booted my ancient (2006?) mac pro in a couple years, but have kept it bc it's so easy to imagine happily rebuilding something modern inside it.
    - jcadam 7y ago
      The Powermac G3 and G4 towers were awesome. Just pull a lever and the side drops down. Everything is nice, neat, and accessible. The G5 towers were similarly functional and very nice as well, and the early Mac Pro towers were obviously based on the same design. It should also be noted that the old beige PowerMacs were no worse than PCs of similar vintage. There seems to have been a large cultural shift at Apple toward extreme form-over-function around the time of the intel transition. I still have to deal with Macs because my wife uses them, and they've only been getting worse. Personally, I've been on PCs running Linux for several years now.

tracker1 7y ago

I'd be surprised if within the next two years, the regular MBP is ARM, and the pro follows the next year. I've already abandoned my macs...

ImprovedSilence 7y ago
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they go that way too. When I first heard that rumor, I thought "never!". But now I'm like... "hmm, hooray battery life, an OS that more fluidly switches from mobile to desktop, maybe not a bad option". Plus ARM is only getting faster/more powerful. Yeah yeah, apple will probably go the way of locking the OS down more, and thats a major buzkill/non-starter, but otherwise I think it's an intriguing concept. Convince me otherwise, I want to hear what huge drawbacks you see to having an ARM laptop.
- SyneRyder 7y ago
  Microsoft already has ARM-based laptops, so we can see what some drawbacks to ARM might be. The Intel-compiled app compatibility is unbearably slow, despite them making a custom ARM chip to improve performance, and the better battery life isn't happening. The Verge could only get 5-6 hours of battery life on the ARM-based Surface Pro X. [1] Presumably Apple is working harder on fixing all of those things than Microsoft, but maybe issues like that are why we still haven't seen an ARM MacBook yet. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/5/20948092/microsoft-surface-pro-x-review-arm-windows-10-apps-features-specs-price https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/5/20948092/microsoft-surfac...
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Apple is pouring billions of dollars a year into making the best ARM chips on the market. I'm sure they can figure it out.
    - SpelingBeeChamp 7y ago
      I am skeptical of your "billions of dollars a year" claim. Source?

_ph_ 7y ago

A modular, easy to repair system would be great, but I would settle for a repairable system. That is, that a trained technician can perform the repairs in a reasonable timeframe without throwing components away, which are not defective. As long as the products are not repairable, we should call Apple out for not being as environment friendly, as they try to present themselves.

dkonofalski 7y ago
They are repairable, just not at their stores. They do swaps at the stores and send out the old parts to be disassembled and remanufactured into warranty exchange parts. They are just as environmentally friendly as they present themselves.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Well, as I wrote, a technician should be able to repair it and that does not mean sending the device around for weeks. Availability of a device is an important thing if you use it for your work. Also, many "repairs" Apple offers are priced such, that quite often the device is totalled. A broken keyboard should cost $100, not >$600. A broken screen cable shouldn't cost > $800. A dead SSD should cost what an SSD does cost. If you throw away a machine, that for any other brand could have been quickly repaired because it is totalled, this is not environmental friendly, even if Apple recycles the aluminum afterwards.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    >a technician should be able to repair it Most people don't care one way or the other as long as they end up with a functioning machine. They don't care about how the wheels end up getting turned as long as they get turned. If anything, replacing a larger component rather than diagnosing and fixing individual components should be faster. If someone has to solder or work on transistors, your repair could definitely take weeks and that time only goes up with the number of repairs necessary for all customers. >If you throw away a machine If you throw away a machine, that's on you. Apple, and most other PC manufacturers, offer some kind of machine recycling. That process includes recycling the raw materials and disassembling and reusing components. Unless we're talking about machines that are 7+ years, those components can still be used for warranty repairs and other assemblies. It's exactly why Apple stops servicing devices that are that old and instead only offers recycling for them. When the warranty claims go down, the parts needed go down.

gregoriol 7y ago

Now that Jony Ive is clearly gone, who knows ;-)

mschuster91 7y ago

That depends. The EU is already implementing a right-to-repair law for appliances, it will only be a matter of time until this is extended to electronic devices such as laptops and smartphones. Apple will have two options then: drop out of the EU market (which they won't do, 500M consumers waiting to be fleeced) or follow the law.

cooljacob204 7y ago
I doubt it. They just won't be able to void warranties due to these kinds of laws. They are still free to design their electronics however they want.