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It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. The Mac Pro will feature modular SSDs (and they aren‘t even super fast). I

by Tepix 7y ago

It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. The Mac Pro will feature modular SSDs (and they aren‘t even super fast). I wonder if Apple will use something proprietary or standard M.2 NVMe modules. They probably can‘t offer PCIe 4.0 slots since they‘re using Intel which is trailing behind.

pwthornton 7y ago
This is an odd definition of professional. To me, what you can do with it and the kinds of jobs it enables is what makes a computer pro or not.
- blacksmith_tb 7y ago
  I think the distinction being made is that something for casual use (like a Chromebook, or an iPad) doesn't really carry with it the expectation that you will be repairing or upgrading components - if something fails, you replace the whole (relatively cheap) device. For a machine that has a pricetag in the thousands, not hundreds, of dollars/euro, that isn't a very appealing approach...
  - outworlder 7y ago
    Hopefully you'll have Apple care, which will allow you to replace the whole machine without paying for an entirely new one. If you need it for a living, it's a no brainer. Is it malfunctioning? Take it to an Apple store, grab a brand new device, restore it from Time Machine and resume where you left off. You could be back up and running in a couple of hours as if nothing had happened. You could potentially waste a lot more than that trying to troubleshoot and then ordering new parts. That only works if you have good Apple Store coverage though. Otherwise, the table flips.
    - InitialLastName 7y ago
      That's also a reason to make it less repairable. If you can replace parts with aftermarket parts, the gray area of applecare support is much bigger. People who are using these computers "professionally" mostly don't want to fiddle with modifying them. They want a computer that will be reliable, and whose failure will cost them the smallest work interruption.
      - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
        Fair, though it doesn't take a very cynical mind to also see that there's a benefit to Apple if I can't double my ram in a couple of years, and instead have to buy a new machine...
- kpU8efre7r 7y ago
  They just slap Pro on whatever version is more expensive.
wmf 7y ago
The Mac Pro has similar proprietary, non-upgradable, non-replaceable modules to the iMac Pro.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  The Mac Pro has standard DIMM slots, same as the iMac Pro. The latter are not officially user-accessible, but they're too hard to access.
postalrat 7y ago
Of course it isn't any more professional than an older thinkbook. But the name does lubricate the purchasing decision for many people.
ojkelly 7y ago
The MBP goes hard on the trade off of maximising what it can fit inside while being portable. You could make the cpu, gpu, ram and ssd user replaceable. But then you need bigger connectors, meaning you fit less stuff in. There’s barely any unused space inside. If you want something you can replace parts on, get a Thinkpad. As someone who carries a MBP every day, the focus on portability is something I appreciate. So for me, I’m happy to take that trade off.
- 2ion 7y ago
  > As someone who carries a MBP every day, the focus on portability is something I appreciate. So for me, I’m happy to take that trade off. Well, no. I got issued a 2018 MBP 15" and it's an alumninum brick twice as heavy as any X-series thinkpad and twice as fragile (screen broke twice by just gripping the lid at the display bezel). This is an accessoire, not a portable device.
neogodless 7y ago
Whether something you purchase can be upgraded depends on a lot of things. We don't expect to be able to upgrade lots of things that are tools used by professionals, including the engine and transmission of a truck used for deliveries, or a hammer. And yet, those things can clearly be intended for professional sales based on capabilities and reliability at the time of sale. With laptops, some laptops really can be upgraded - especially larger, heavier ones. Ironically, sometimes heavier ones that have easy to access panels for upgrades are cheaper. But as a provider of laptops, there would be a balance between allowing those upgrades, and guaranteeing levels of performance and reliability. Personally, I won't buy a desktop - I'll buy parts (with options for later upgrades) and I'll build it. But I won't claim that it's therefore a device for professionals. Rather, it's a device specifically for me! With a laptop, which is increasingly the tool of choice for many professionals, being able to upgrade does tend to mean you'll get a longer life out of it. That's a good thing, but it's only one of many ways to measure whether a laptop is good for your professional needs. My employer provided me with a Macbook Pro, and it works well for my tasks as is, without needing upgrades. But in the past, I've had computers that slowed my performance down, and had to be upgraded or replaced. And in each case, the time savings multiplied by my hourly rate made replacing the hardware trivial in comparison. So does that mean Apple is taking advantage of businesses by selling a professional tool that cannot be upgraded? Maybe. Maybe that was your point all along? But it's not an uncommon practice, and our best option to get around this is to choose an alternative device that better fits what we value. (That's why people love Windows and Linux - lots more choice!)
clay_the_ripper 7y ago
Im so tired of these comments on HN. Some people want a laptop they can pull apart and fix themselves. Those people should buy something else. when I was younger and had more time than money, I used to upgrade RAM and the SSD myself. Then I started making money. Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2 hours doing all that nonsense when I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out RAM and Hard drive. Can’t afford it? Then buy something else! I honestly don’t underatand this constant complaining about repairing laptops yourselves. What a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs to do it for you.
- hk__2 7y ago
  > Im so tired of these comments on HN. Some people want a laptop they can pull apart and fix themselves. Those people should buy something else. The issue arises when you want a laptop you can pull apart and fix yourself AND macOS. You can’t buy something else.
- mopsi 7y ago
  > Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2 hours It doesn't have to be 2 hours. It doesn't have to be more than 5-10 minutes. > I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out RAM and Hard drive. Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023. You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of purchase. > I honestly don’t underatand this constant complaining about repairing laptops yourselves. What a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs to do it for you. Apple can't repair them either, the design is unrepairable, that's why the failing keyboards were such a fuck-up. They had to throw away the whole top half of the chassis because keyboard was riveted to it. It's as anti-consumer and anti-environment as it gets. Given the growing electronic waste problem, I expect such practices to be outlawed sooner or later, and I'm somewhat surprised that Apple isn't already positioning itself as leader in long-lasting products that extract maximum value from natural resources put into them. Repairability and upgradability are cornerstones of environmentally responsible business, but Apple seems to be heading in the opposite direction.
  - wtallis 7y ago
    > Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023. You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of purchase. Given that the SSDs you can buy right now outstrip the IO bandwidth your laptop CPU provides, the only real benefit that upgrading to future SSDs could provide would be a better price per GB. If you're seriously concerned about wanting more storage a few years down the road, you probably also want to buy a machine now and immediately upgrade it with aftermarket storage.
outworlder 7y ago
> It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. Well, if you use this professionally, grab the max memory and storage available. Done. It's not like you could stuff 256GB of RAM in the future, chipsets have limitations. As for storage, that's only the internal storage. It has fast ports for a reason. Upgradability is good, but it is worth much more for non-professionals. This allows someone to buy a machine today for lighter tasks and then later on re-purpose it for heavier workloads should the need arise.
skavi 7y ago
Look at the inside of this thing. nearly every millimeter is used. Switching to replaceable forms of memory/storage would take up significant space, either requiring a larger laptop, a smaller battery, or lower thermal capacity.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by Tepix 7y ago

pwthornton 7y ago

This is an odd definition of professional. To me, what you can do with it and the kinds of jobs it enables is what makes a computer pro or not.

blacksmith_tb 7y ago
I think the distinction being made is that something for casual use (like a Chromebook, or an iPad) doesn't really carry with it the expectation that you will be repairing or upgrading components - if something fails, you replace the whole (relatively cheap) device. For a machine that has a pricetag in the thousands, not hundreds, of dollars/euro, that isn't a very appealing approach...
- outworlder 7y ago
  Hopefully you'll have Apple care, which will allow you to replace the whole machine without paying for an entirely new one. If you need it for a living, it's a no brainer. Is it malfunctioning? Take it to an Apple store, grab a brand new device, restore it from Time Machine and resume where you left off. You could be back up and running in a couple of hours as if nothing had happened. You could potentially waste a lot more than that trying to troubleshoot and then ordering new parts. That only works if you have good Apple Store coverage though. Otherwise, the table flips.
  - InitialLastName 7y ago
    That's also a reason to make it less repairable. If you can replace parts with aftermarket parts, the gray area of applecare support is much bigger. People who are using these computers "professionally" mostly don't want to fiddle with modifying them. They want a computer that will be reliable, and whose failure will cost them the smallest work interruption.
    - blacksmith_tb 7y ago
      Fair, though it doesn't take a very cynical mind to also see that there's a benefit to Apple if I can't double my ram in a couple of years, and instead have to buy a new machine...
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
They just slap Pro on whatever version is more expensive.

wmf 7y ago

The Mac Pro has similar proprietary, non-upgradable, non-replaceable modules to the iMac Pro.

saagarjha 7y ago
The Mac Pro has standard DIMM slots, same as the iMac Pro. The latter are not officially user-accessible, but they're too hard to access.

postalrat 7y ago

Of course it isn't any more professional than an older thinkbook. But the name does lubricate the purchasing decision for many people.

ojkelly 7y ago

The MBP goes hard on the trade off of maximising what it can fit inside while being portable. You could make the cpu, gpu, ram and ssd user replaceable. But then you need bigger connectors, meaning you fit less stuff in. There’s barely any unused space inside. If you want something you can replace parts on, get a Thinkpad. As someone who carries a MBP every day, the focus on portability is something I appreciate. So for me, I’m happy to take that trade off.

2ion 7y ago
> As someone who carries a MBP every day, the focus on portability is something I appreciate. So for me, I’m happy to take that trade off. Well, no. I got issued a 2018 MBP 15" and it's an alumninum brick twice as heavy as any X-series thinkpad and twice as fragile (screen broke twice by just gripping the lid at the display bezel). This is an accessoire, not a portable device.

neogodless 7y ago

Whether something you purchase can be upgraded depends on a lot of things. We don't expect to be able to upgrade lots of things that are tools used by professionals, including the engine and transmission of a truck used for deliveries, or a hammer. And yet, those things can clearly be intended for professional sales based on capabilities and reliability at the time of sale. With laptops, some laptops really can be upgraded - especially larger, heavier ones. Ironically, sometimes heavier ones that have easy to access panels for upgrades are cheaper. But as a provider of laptops, there would be a balance between allowing those upgrades, and guaranteeing levels of performance and reliability. Personally, I won't buy a desktop - I'll buy parts (with options for later upgrades) and I'll build it. But I won't claim that it's therefore a device for professionals. Rather, it's a device specifically for me! With a laptop, which is increasingly the tool of choice for many professionals, being able to upgrade does tend to mean you'll get a longer life out of it. That's a good thing, but it's only one of many ways to measure whether a laptop is good for your professional needs. My employer provided me with a Macbook Pro, and it works well for my tasks as is, without needing upgrades. But in the past, I've had computers that slowed my performance down, and had to be upgraded or replaced. And in each case, the time savings multiplied by my hourly rate made replacing the hardware trivial in comparison. So does that mean Apple is taking advantage of businesses by selling a professional tool that cannot be upgraded? Maybe. Maybe that was your point all along? But it's not an uncommon practice, and our best option to get around this is to choose an alternative device that better fits what we value. (That's why people love Windows and Linux - lots more choice!)

clay_the_ripper 7y ago

Im so tired of these comments on HN. Some people want a laptop they can pull apart and fix themselves. Those people should buy something else. when I was younger and had more time than money, I used to upgrade RAM and the SSD myself. Then I started making money. Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2 hours doing all that nonsense when I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out RAM and Hard drive. Can’t afford it? Then buy something else! I honestly don’t underatand this constant complaining about repairing laptops yourselves. What a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs to do it for you.

hk__2 7y ago
> Im so tired of these comments on HN. Some people want a laptop they can pull apart and fix themselves. Those people should buy something else. The issue arises when you want a laptop you can pull apart and fix yourself AND macOS. You can’t buy something else.
mopsi 7y ago
> Then it became seriously dumb to spend 2 hours It doesn't have to be 2 hours. It doesn't have to be more than 5-10 minutes. > I can just pay upfront to get a maxed out RAM and Hard drive. Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023. You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of purchase. > I honestly don’t underatand this constant complaining about repairing laptops yourselves. What a waste of time! Leave it to the Apple store techs to do it for you. Apple can't repair them either, the design is unrepairable, that's why the failing keyboards were such a fuck-up. They had to throw away the whole top half of the chassis because keyboard was riveted to it. It's as anti-consumer and anti-environment as it gets. Given the growing electronic waste problem, I expect such practices to be outlawed sooner or later, and I'm somewhat surprised that Apple isn't already positioning itself as leader in long-lasting products that extract maximum value from natural resources put into them. Repairability and upgradability are cornerstones of environmentally responsible business, but Apple seems to be heading in the opposite direction.
- wtallis 7y ago
  > Yes, but you can't pay upfront and get a SSD that will be launched in 2023. You'll be forever stuck with whatever tech was available at the time of purchase. Given that the SSDs you can buy right now outstrip the IO bandwidth your laptop CPU provides, the only real benefit that upgrading to future SSDs could provide would be a better price per GB. If you're seriously concerned about wanting more storage a few years down the road, you probably also want to buy a machine now and immediately upgrade it with aftermarket storage.

outworlder 7y ago

> It‘s not a very professional device if you can‘t upgrade the storage and the memory. Well, if you use this professionally, grab the max memory and storage available. Done. It's not like you could stuff 256GB of RAM in the future, chipsets have limitations. As for storage, that's only the internal storage. It has fast ports for a reason. Upgradability is good, but it is worth much more for non-professionals. This allows someone to buy a machine today for lighter tasks and then later on re-purpose it for heavier workloads should the need arise.

skavi 7y ago

Look at the inside of this thing. nearly every millimeter is used. Switching to replaceable forms of memory/storage would take up significant space, either requiring a larger laptop, a smaller battery, or lower thermal capacity.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]