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I disagree with everything you said. I've been using vi (and vim and neovim) for 20 years and it's a fantastic editor but not for people new to the command lin

I disagree with everything you said. I've been using vi (and vim and neovim) for 20 years and it's a fantastic editor but not for people new to the command line. There's no reason that nano shouldn't be the default. It's available on many systems by default anyway and it's much more beginner friendly than any vi spinoff. If the only reason for sticking to a thing is "tradition" then it's right to re-evaluate it. There's a reason that "how to exit vi(m)" is the most read question on StackOverflow.

artsyca 7y ago
How about a new conversation pattern "I can understand and appreciate your perspective and opinion and would offer an alternative viewpoint" Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke
- lillesvin 7y ago
  > Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it > > I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever And in nano it's displayed right there at the bottom of the screen at all times whereas with vi/vim/neovim you have nothing to go by unless you're lucky enough that you happened to open it up on an empty buffer in which case the "splash" screen will tell you to consult with :help or quit with :q. StackOverflow is a testament to how slim your chances of randomly guessing that is. > Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke I would agree with that if the comment I was replying to actually put up some good-faith arguments rather than just making unsupported statements about Unix/Linux and vi(m), or if we were arguing something wildly subjective here but the argument I was making was that nano is easier for newcomers than vim, and there's plenty of empirical data in the form of questions in forums and the like to back that up.
  - artsyca 7y ago
    You're leaning too heavily on rationalism whereas computer science is both an art and a science and its definitely not for everyone hence the preference for sheer barriers to entry
    - lillesvin 7y ago
      > [...] its definitely not for everyone hence the preference for sheer barriers to entry So, keeping in mind that you said you'd had your issues with exiting nano (despite the instructions being on-screen at all times), is CS for you? Besides, people have other reasons to be messing around with Linux/Unix than studying CS. I'm sorry, but you're presenting exactly 0 arguments for gatekeeping except gatekeeping itself, and that just seems rather silly to me.
      - artsyca 7y ago
        I started on an apple][ where anything you typed simply said SYNTAX ERROR and there was no stack overflow
        lillesvin 7y ago
        That's cool, but do you have any arguments for gatekeeping except for "for the sake of gatekeeping"?
        artsyca 7y ago
        Yes because it's hard until it isn't whereas the other way around it's a bunch of green neophytes all thumbs
        lillesvin 7y ago
        Yeah, God forbid that we actually improve on things and make them more accessible. Hell, we should all start out with punch cards and only be allowed to use a keyboard once we've punched our way through making a functioning driver for it. That CS macho thing you're trying to get going is both silly, unproductive and meaningless.

artsyca 7y ago

How about a new conversation pattern "I can understand and appreciate your perspective and opinion and would offer an alternative viewpoint" Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke

lillesvin 7y ago
> Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it > > I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever And in nano it's displayed right there at the bottom of the screen at all times whereas with vi/vim/neovim you have nothing to go by unless you're lucky enough that you happened to open it up on an empty buffer in which case the "splash" screen will tell you to consult with :help or quit with :q. StackOverflow is a testament to how slim your chances of randomly guessing that is. > Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke I would agree with that if the comment I was replying to actually put up some good-faith arguments rather than just making unsupported statements about Unix/Linux and vi(m), or if we were arguing something wildly subjective here but the argument I was making was that nano is easier for newcomers than vim, and there's plenty of empirical data in the form of questions in forums and the like to back that up.
- artsyca 7y ago
  You're leaning too heavily on rationalism whereas computer science is both an art and a science and its definitely not for everyone hence the preference for sheer barriers to entry
  - lillesvin 7y ago
    > [...] its definitely not for everyone hence the preference for sheer barriers to entry So, keeping in mind that you said you'd had your issues with exiting nano (despite the instructions being on-screen at all times), is CS for you? Besides, people have other reasons to be messing around with Linux/Unix than studying CS. I'm sorry, but you're presenting exactly 0 arguments for gatekeeping except gatekeeping itself, and that just seems rather silly to me.
    - artsyca 7y ago
      I started on an apple][ where anything you typed simply said SYNTAX ERROR and there was no stack overflow
      - lillesvin 7y ago
        That's cool, but do you have any arguments for gatekeeping except for "for the sake of gatekeeping"?
        artsyca 7y ago
        Yes because it's hard until it isn't whereas the other way around it's a bunch of green neophytes all thumbs
        lillesvin 7y ago
        Yeah, God forbid that we actually improve on things and make them more accessible. Hell, we should all start out with punch cards and only be allowed to use a keyboard once we've punched our way through making a functioning driver for it. That CS macho thing you're trying to get going is both silly, unproductive and meaningless.