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Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. However, beginners need to learn these tools if they wa

Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. However, beginners need to learn these tools if they want to become even somewhat proficient on UNIX systems. No pain, no gain.

farisjarrah 7y ago
We do not all agree that vi is poorly conceived and awful to use. Its a great tool if you know how to use it. Furthermore, in today's world its entirely possible to be an extremely proficient systems administrator without being proficient at Vi. My co-worker is a senior DevOps engineer and uses nano and VS Code exclusively, no vi or vim at all. I will concede that Vi is extremely beginner unfriendly though.
PHGamer 7y ago
sacrilege.
Seirdy 7y ago
> Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. I disagree with everything in this sentence. (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS).
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS). Don't forget about the Dvorak keyboard. It doesn't work without Dvorak.
  - Seirdy 7y ago
    I should really make a list of things I would change if we could adopt better standards free of legacy. Dvorak would be included; the only reason I haven't learned left-handed Programmer's Dvorak is because most devices don't make it trivial to change the keyboard layout.
- b5n 7y ago
  Emacs is also worthy of a mention here. Like Vim it takes a little getting used to, but it's incredibly powerful. Emacs works fantastically as an IDE (as does Vim), among many other things.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    With evil-mode, emacs becomes the best vi-style text editor in town.
lillesvin 7y ago
I disagree with everything you said. I've been using vi (and vim and neovim) for 20 years and it's a fantastic editor but not for people new to the command line. There's no reason that nano shouldn't be the default. It's available on many systems by default anyway and it's much more beginner friendly than any vi spinoff. If the only reason for sticking to a thing is "tradition" then it's right to re-evaluate it. There's a reason that "how to exit vi(m)" is the most read question on StackOverflow.
- artsyca 7y ago
  How about a new conversation pattern "I can understand and appreciate your perspective and opinion and would offer an alternative viewpoint" Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke
  - lillesvin 7y ago
    > Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it > > I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever And in nano it's displayed right there at the bottom of the screen at all times whereas with vi/vim/neovim you have nothing to go by unless you're lucky enough that you happened to open it up on an empty buffer in which case the "splash" screen will tell you to consult with :help or quit with :q. StackOverflow is a testament to how slim your chances of randomly guessing that is. > Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke I would agree with that if the comment I was replying to actually put up some good-faith arguments rather than just making unsupported statements about Unix/Linux and vi(m), or if we were arguing something wildly subjective here but the argument I was making was that nano is easier for newcomers than vim, and there's plenty of empirical data in the form of questions in forums and the like to back that up.
deleted 7y ago
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marssaxman 7y ago
I've been using UNIX systems for literally decades now without ever bothering to learn any more of vi than how to quit. I just switch the default editor to nano and get on with life.

farisjarrah 7y ago

We do not all agree that vi is poorly conceived and awful to use. Its a great tool if you know how to use it. Furthermore, in today's world its entirely possible to be an extremely proficient systems administrator without being proficient at Vi. My co-worker is a senior DevOps engineer and uses nano and VS Code exclusively, no vi or vim at all. I will concede that Vi is extremely beginner unfriendly though.

PHGamer 7y ago

sacrilege.

Seirdy 7y ago

> Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. I disagree with everything in this sentence. (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS).

gridlockd 7y ago
> (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS). Don't forget about the Dvorak keyboard. It doesn't work without Dvorak.
- Seirdy 7y ago
  I should really make a list of things I would change if we could adopt better standards free of legacy. Dvorak would be included; the only reason I haven't learned left-handed Programmer's Dvorak is because most devices don't make it trivial to change the keyboard layout.
b5n 7y ago
Emacs is also worthy of a mention here. Like Vim it takes a little getting used to, but it's incredibly powerful. Emacs works fantastically as an IDE (as does Vim), among many other things.
- catalogia 7y ago
  With evil-mode, emacs becomes the best vi-style text editor in town.

lillesvin 7y ago

I disagree with everything you said. I've been using vi (and vim and neovim) for 20 years and it's a fantastic editor but not for people new to the command line. There's no reason that nano shouldn't be the default. It's available on many systems by default anyway and it's much more beginner friendly than any vi spinoff. If the only reason for sticking to a thing is "tradition" then it's right to re-evaluate it. There's a reason that "how to exit vi(m)" is the most read question on StackOverflow.

artsyca 7y ago
How about a new conversation pattern "I can understand and appreciate your perspective and opinion and would offer an alternative viewpoint" Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke
- lillesvin 7y ago
  > Once you learn how to exit vim you only need to look it up a few more times before you begin to get it > > I've also struggled to exit nano from the keyboard with ^X or whatever And in nano it's displayed right there at the bottom of the screen at all times whereas with vi/vim/neovim you have nothing to go by unless you're lucky enough that you happened to open it up on an empty buffer in which case the "splash" screen will tell you to consult with :help or quit with :q. StackOverflow is a testament to how slim your chances of randomly guessing that is. > Appreciating all sides of an argument helps one understand the delicate balance that exists rather than the constant polarizing of opinion that agreement and disagreement evoke I would agree with that if the comment I was replying to actually put up some good-faith arguments rather than just making unsupported statements about Unix/Linux and vi(m), or if we were arguing something wildly subjective here but the argument I was making was that nano is easier for newcomers than vim, and there's plenty of empirical data in the form of questions in forums and the like to back that up.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

marssaxman 7y ago

I've been using UNIX systems for literally decades now without ever bothering to learn any more of vi than how to quit. I just switch the default editor to nano and get on with life.