3 ms·

I found former prosecutor and current defense attorney Ken White's perspective on Epstein's death very interesting. Many of the arguments for a conspiracy are b

I found former prosecutor and current defense attorney Ken White's perspective on Epstein's death very interesting. Many of the arguments for a conspiracy are based in a misunderstanding of how awfully our justice system treats people all the time. Being on suicide watch and not being helped is normal. > Ken "Popehat" White (previously) has expanded on his excellent Twitter thread about Jeffrey Epstein's suicide in jail, and just how (shamefully) normal it is for prisoners to die in custody due to indifference, overwork, malfeasance and sadism on the part of prison authorities. > In the Atlantic, White tells the stories of 32 inmates who died (or nearly died) in US custody, under circumstances that are every bit as absurd and negligent as those surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death. > The point isn't that it's inconceivable that Epstein died as the result of a conspiracy, but the conspiracy theories that say that it has to be a setup because it's so implausible that prison authorities would be so totally useless are thoroughly disconnected from reality. https://boingboing.net/2019/08/13/malice-vs-incompetence.html https://boingboing.net/2019/08/13/malice-vs-incompetence.htm...

1000units 7y ago
Epstein wasn't a normal prisoner. None of this is particularly relevant.
- iudqnolq 7y ago
  Ken White addresses this. Even with high profile prisoners, guards face minimal accountability in the US prison system.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    Did the "malfunctioning" cameras also just not fear accountability?
    - iudqnolq 7y ago
      No, the people who were supposed to maintain them didn't bother because they knew they didn't have to fear accountability and they were extremely understaffed and overworked. > A New York Times investigation published last year detailed this practice, under which federal prisons are so strapped for correctional officers that they regularly compel teachers, nurses, secretaries and other support staff members to step in. The practice has grown at some prisons as the Trump administration has curtailed the hiring of correctional officers. > Many of these staff members only receive a few weeks’ training in correctional work, and, while required by contract to serve as substitutes, are often uncomfortable in the roles. > Union officials said that for more than a year officials in Washington had been made aware of a severe staffing shortage at the facility in the wake of a federal hiring freeze. One of the guards on the unit where Mr. Epstein died had been working overtime for five straight days, while the other had been forced to work overtime that day, a union official said. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/nyregion/epstein-barr.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/nyregion/epstein-barr.htm... Here's another quote from Ken White, the criminal defense attorney I quoted above > Jeffrey Epstein’s name and face are everywhere following his death. Even as an investigation reveals that the Metropolitan Correctional Center, where he died, was terminally short-staffed and relied on untrained guards who failed to monitor him, conspiracy theories persist. Americans who believe in their justice system assert that it is obvious that he was murdered, and that jailers could not possibly be so incompetent, cruel, or indifferent as to let such a high-profile prisoner commit suicide. > Here, to help you evaluate that claim, are 32 short stories about in-custody deaths or near-deaths in America. > These stories don’t mention Jeffrey Epstein, but they are about him. Epstein was incarcerated in the United States of America, and this is how the United States of America, the mightiest and richest nation there is or ever has been, treats incarcerated people. When you say, “There is no way that guards could be so reckless, so indifferent, so malicious as to just let someone as important as Epstein die,” this is how 32 Americans respond. Many, many more could respond in kind.
      - anigbrowl 7y ago
        Those are legitimate observations, but so is CamperBob's. I have first hand experience of how bad the carceral system can be, but the fact of that awfulness doesn't mitigate the oddness of a very high profile prisoner just falling through the cracks. The whole thesis here is that what happened to Epstein could happen to anyone, but that's not true. Most people are not billionaires with 24-7 access to the best lawyers in the world and extraordinary leverage over some of the most powerful people in the world. The implicit subtext here is that Epstein is just another human that got chewed up in a system that's generally indifferent if not outright hostile to human life. But people in jail are not mindless components in a dysfunctional system. They still have agency and respond to incentives and are mostly intensely interested in each other, not least because of the inhospitality of the system. They have newspapers and TV in jail, and I very sure that everyone in there was very aware of who their new neighbor was.
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    Once again, that's a general statement that doesn't apply here. Rest assured that heads will roll/have already rolled over this.
    - iudqnolq 7y ago
      You are completely right I made a general argument. I didn't say that Epstein must have committed suicide. I said that an argument based in the idea that Epstein was treated in a shockingly irregular manner ignores the state of the US justice system. As to heads rolling, the low-level guards in charge of watching Epstein are on unpaid leave and under investigation. The head of the Bureau of Prisons has been demoted to his previous job as the head of a department in the bureau of prisons. I wouldn't call that accountability.
      - CamperBob2 7y ago
        Speaking of heads rolling: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/us/jeffrey-epstein-guard-charge/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/us/jeffrey-epstein-guard-char... Not defending these people, mind you, or anyone involved. Just saying that either some shenanigans were afoot, or Epstein found himself at the center of an astonishing vortex of stupidity and carelessness, the likes of which is seldom seen in government or anywhere else. It's easier to imagine Barney Fife at Nuremberg. Whether the people responsible were designated patsies or garden-variety lazy dumbasses, they are not in for a good time.
        iudqnolq 7y ago
        My argument is that the federal prison system outrageously mistreats detainees as a matter of course. Limited evidence suggests employees in the prison he was in habitually falsified reporting to get out of work. I'm done with this thread now, but I'd encourage you to read the Slate article I linked to. One of the articles that I linked to earlier in this thread is an interview with an academic who said she'd been trying to draw attention to the outrageous mistreatment of the detainees in that prison for years and thought it was really a shame that it took something happening to someone as famous as Epstein for it to be covered in the news. All my point was was that you can't use the fact that he was treated outrageously badly by the guards to prove that it was a conspiracy. What happened to Epstein should be taken as a wake-up call for us to reform our judicial system.
malvosenior 7y ago
No one had killed themselves in that prison in over ten years. You have to really contort all the information available in this case to see it as anything other than a massive cover up. People in the media going out of their way to claim it's a "conspiracy theory" should be held in utmost suspicion. Look at how ABC spiked the story of Epstein before it became public and how the other major networks have since played along. Including CBS firing the ABC whistle blower (who had since moved on to working with them) at ABC's request. I don't know what Popehat's motives are for trying to cover this up further, but I bet he's friends with people who are implicated.
- iudqnolq 7y ago
  Ken White has been criticizing the Justice system for years. His point is that Epstein's death should be seen as a wake-up call to improve the treatment of people in our prisons, and not an anomaly. I found sources saying that guards were working 16-hour days and cutting corners regularly at the MCC (https://apnews.com/39ca1eb755914af8b273966c268a0a9b https://apnews.com/39ca1eb755914af8b273966c268a0a9b). I couldn't find a source for your claim that no one else had committed suicide in the MCC in over ten years. Cite?
  - malvosenior 7y ago
    > I couldn't find a source for your claim that no one else had committed suicide in the MCC in over ten years. Cite? Sure, one successful suicide in 21 years: https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/suicide-supposedly-nearly-impossible-at-ulta-secure-jeffrey-epstein-lockup/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/suicide-supposedly-nearly-impo... Anyone leaving that bit of information out of their narrative is being willfully deceptive or is not informed enough to have an opinion they should be making public.
    - iudqnolq 7y ago
      Suicide is a common problem in federal prisons, accounting for around 30% of prisoner deaths. The NYPost article is deeply unsatisfying as a source to me because it conflate protections all prisoners have and protections prisoners on suicide watch have, and incorrectly states that cameras in federal prisons commonly cover sleeping areas. It also claims taking someone off suicide watch is unusual and rare, involving a lot of paperwork and evaluations. They are technically right that a lot of people have to sign off, but the process is often not taken very seriously. Furthermore, in general the NY Post is seen as a far-right tabloid and I couldn't find any more reputable source making the same claim. And they don't provide much detail about their claim, hedging by saying that they tried looking up news articles and didn't find any (as opposed to having a more conclusive source) and report that there were a "handful" of unsuccessful suicides while omitting any further details. If they were a more reputable publication I'd give them some benefit of the doubt, but given their track record I'd want them to cite their sources more explicitly. Still, your point did make me realize that every article I've ready about poor suicide watch procedures used national statistics instead of statistics specific to the MCC. That is a serious weakness of those sources. Cite: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/12/jeffrey-epstein-suicide-mystery-questions-1459819 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/12/jeffrey-epstein-su... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide-watch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...
buboard 7y ago
parent is talking about publicity though. The case is so high profile and mysterious it's worthy of at least one hollywood drama.

1000units 7y ago

Epstein wasn't a normal prisoner. None of this is particularly relevant.

iudqnolq 7y ago
Ken White addresses this. Even with high profile prisoners, guards face minimal accountability in the US prison system.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Did the "malfunctioning" cameras also just not fear accountability?
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    No, the people who were supposed to maintain them didn't bother because they knew they didn't have to fear accountability and they were extremely understaffed and overworked. > A New York Times investigation published last year detailed this practice, under which federal prisons are so strapped for correctional officers that they regularly compel teachers, nurses, secretaries and other support staff members to step in. The practice has grown at some prisons as the Trump administration has curtailed the hiring of correctional officers. > Many of these staff members only receive a few weeks’ training in correctional work, and, while required by contract to serve as substitutes, are often uncomfortable in the roles. > Union officials said that for more than a year officials in Washington had been made aware of a severe staffing shortage at the facility in the wake of a federal hiring freeze. One of the guards on the unit where Mr. Epstein died had been working overtime for five straight days, while the other had been forced to work overtime that day, a union official said. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/nyregion/epstein-barr.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/nyregion/epstein-barr.htm... Here's another quote from Ken White, the criminal defense attorney I quoted above > Jeffrey Epstein’s name and face are everywhere following his death. Even as an investigation reveals that the Metropolitan Correctional Center, where he died, was terminally short-staffed and relied on untrained guards who failed to monitor him, conspiracy theories persist. Americans who believe in their justice system assert that it is obvious that he was murdered, and that jailers could not possibly be so incompetent, cruel, or indifferent as to let such a high-profile prisoner commit suicide. > Here, to help you evaluate that claim, are 32 short stories about in-custody deaths or near-deaths in America. > These stories don’t mention Jeffrey Epstein, but they are about him. Epstein was incarcerated in the United States of America, and this is how the United States of America, the mightiest and richest nation there is or ever has been, treats incarcerated people. When you say, “There is no way that guards could be so reckless, so indifferent, so malicious as to just let someone as important as Epstein die,” this is how 32 Americans respond. Many, many more could respond in kind.
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      Those are legitimate observations, but so is CamperBob's. I have first hand experience of how bad the carceral system can be, but the fact of that awfulness doesn't mitigate the oddness of a very high profile prisoner just falling through the cracks. The whole thesis here is that what happened to Epstein could happen to anyone, but that's not true. Most people are not billionaires with 24-7 access to the best lawyers in the world and extraordinary leverage over some of the most powerful people in the world. The implicit subtext here is that Epstein is just another human that got chewed up in a system that's generally indifferent if not outright hostile to human life. But people in jail are not mindless components in a dysfunctional system. They still have agency and respond to incentives and are mostly intensely interested in each other, not least because of the inhospitality of the system. They have newspapers and TV in jail, and I very sure that everyone in there was very aware of who their new neighbor was.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  Once again, that's a general statement that doesn't apply here. Rest assured that heads will roll/have already rolled over this.
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    You are completely right I made a general argument. I didn't say that Epstein must have committed suicide. I said that an argument based in the idea that Epstein was treated in a shockingly irregular manner ignores the state of the US justice system. As to heads rolling, the low-level guards in charge of watching Epstein are on unpaid leave and under investigation. The head of the Bureau of Prisons has been demoted to his previous job as the head of a department in the bureau of prisons. I wouldn't call that accountability.
    - CamperBob2 7y ago
      Speaking of heads rolling: https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/us/jeffrey-epstein-guard-charge/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/us/jeffrey-epstein-guard-char... Not defending these people, mind you, or anyone involved. Just saying that either some shenanigans were afoot, or Epstein found himself at the center of an astonishing vortex of stupidity and carelessness, the likes of which is seldom seen in government or anywhere else. It's easier to imagine Barney Fife at Nuremberg. Whether the people responsible were designated patsies or garden-variety lazy dumbasses, they are not in for a good time.
      - iudqnolq 7y ago
        My argument is that the federal prison system outrageously mistreats detainees as a matter of course. Limited evidence suggests employees in the prison he was in habitually falsified reporting to get out of work. I'm done with this thread now, but I'd encourage you to read the Slate article I linked to. One of the articles that I linked to earlier in this thread is an interview with an academic who said she'd been trying to draw attention to the outrageous mistreatment of the detainees in that prison for years and thought it was really a shame that it took something happening to someone as famous as Epstein for it to be covered in the news. All my point was was that you can't use the fact that he was treated outrageously badly by the guards to prove that it was a conspiracy. What happened to Epstein should be taken as a wake-up call for us to reform our judicial system.

malvosenior 7y ago

No one had killed themselves in that prison in over ten years. You have to really contort all the information available in this case to see it as anything other than a massive cover up. People in the media going out of their way to claim it's a "conspiracy theory" should be held in utmost suspicion. Look at how ABC spiked the story of Epstein before it became public and how the other major networks have since played along. Including CBS firing the ABC whistle blower (who had since moved on to working with them) at ABC's request. I don't know what Popehat's motives are for trying to cover this up further, but I bet he's friends with people who are implicated.

iudqnolq 7y ago
Ken White has been criticizing the Justice system for years. His point is that Epstein's death should be seen as a wake-up call to improve the treatment of people in our prisons, and not an anomaly. I found sources saying that guards were working 16-hour days and cutting corners regularly at the MCC (https://apnews.com/39ca1eb755914af8b273966c268a0a9b https://apnews.com/39ca1eb755914af8b273966c268a0a9b). I couldn't find a source for your claim that no one else had committed suicide in the MCC in over ten years. Cite?
- malvosenior 7y ago
  > I couldn't find a source for your claim that no one else had committed suicide in the MCC in over ten years. Cite? Sure, one successful suicide in 21 years: https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/suicide-supposedly-nearly-impossible-at-ulta-secure-jeffrey-epstein-lockup/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/suicide-supposedly-nearly-impo... Anyone leaving that bit of information out of their narrative is being willfully deceptive or is not informed enough to have an opinion they should be making public.
  - iudqnolq 7y ago
    Suicide is a common problem in federal prisons, accounting for around 30% of prisoner deaths. The NYPost article is deeply unsatisfying as a source to me because it conflate protections all prisoners have and protections prisoners on suicide watch have, and incorrectly states that cameras in federal prisons commonly cover sleeping areas. It also claims taking someone off suicide watch is unusual and rare, involving a lot of paperwork and evaluations. They are technically right that a lot of people have to sign off, but the process is often not taken very seriously. Furthermore, in general the NY Post is seen as a far-right tabloid and I couldn't find any more reputable source making the same claim. And they don't provide much detail about their claim, hedging by saying that they tried looking up news articles and didn't find any (as opposed to having a more conclusive source) and report that there were a "handful" of unsuccessful suicides while omitting any further details. If they were a more reputable publication I'd give them some benefit of the doubt, but given their track record I'd want them to cite their sources more explicitly. Still, your point did make me realize that every article I've ready about poor suicide watch procedures used national statistics instead of statistics specific to the MCC. That is a serious weakness of those sources. Cite: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/12/jeffrey-epstein-suicide-mystery-questions-1459819 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/12/jeffrey-epstein-su... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-suicide-watch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-...

buboard 7y ago

parent is talking about publicity though. The case is so high profile and mysterious it's worthy of at least one hollywood drama.