6 ms·

Fedora Devs Looking to Change Default Editor from Vi to Nano

20 points by equalunique 7y ago

folkhack 7y ago
I think this is one of the best things you can do to make the Linux CLI more accessible. I love vim for a lot of reasons but when I'm mentoring someone who's just starting out I skip straight past it for nano because I don't want the people I'm teaching to get bogged down in something that is super terse... New vim users almost always have to use a cheatsheet and I'd rather not inflict that on someone who's dipping their toes into Linux. Once you get a bit further into the OS and what you can do I find vim to be an important tool to learn. Changing your editor or shell is super easy to do and anyone who has a strong preference can update either within seconds.
- kjeetgill 7y ago
  I get what you're saying, but I think it's generally wrongheaded to tailor Linux defaults to new users. We're all beginners for only a fraction of our time on a platform after all. I used nano until I got on my feet too and I'd love for it to be added to the standards so it's always present. But the goal of good POSIXy defaults are for transferable consistent experiences/skills. I think defaults should be things you'd want for typical real world use, not to upgrade off of. Edit: To clarify: I think accounting for beginners is important! But I don't think using crippled defaults are the way to do that.
  - gowld 7y ago
    Ed is the standard text editor. https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html Surely you can set EDITOR on any machine you are doing real work on, which isn't going to be a fresh default installation. OK, so the default should be vi, and damn the newbies... and the emacs users?
  - folkhack 7y ago
    > "it's generally wrongheaded to tailor Linux defaults to new users" > "I think accounting for beginners is important!" I read this as two conflicting statements. > But I don't think using crippled defaults are the way to do that. I disagree that nano is a "crippled default" - nano is a highly competent text editor and I see plenty of industry professionals use it daily.
    - jraph 7y ago
      Yes, and probably more usable than vi (not talking about vim) and its features are more than enough to edit configuration files. It has copy paste of a line or an arbitrary chunk of text (I learned that last week! But I often use the copy paste functionality of the terminal emulator anyway), syntax highlighting, undo redo, line numbers, search and replace. Access to these features is efficient. It's also fast and lightweight. All the characteristics of a good default terminal text editor. Free us from vi! :-)
  - artsyca 7y ago
    Nothing wrong with an immediately steep learning curve it's only hard until it isn't
    - folkhack 7y ago
      I'd respectfully disagree with this one unless the steep learning curve is a requirement to the task at hand. I mentor/teach with an "ability outwards" approach... ie: I want to get my students a simple capability first, and then "add tools to the toolbox" second. Typically, their first project is a small webserver with a database behind it (nginx static config first, then moving to a nginx + MariaDB + $their_preferred_language stack; all on Ubuntu Server). Since that's a non-trivial task I want to keep the details as simple as possible, so they can focus on things that matter. Typically I won't teach vi/vim/sed/awk etc. until after they can accomplish actual work within the OS. Although I see complex text manipulation as important, I see it as additional tooling vs. a concept they can anchor their learning experience to. > Nothing wrong with an immediately steep learning curve it's only hard until it isn't I read this as "throw em in the lake, they'll learn to swim" vs. being honored to help them start in one of the most powerful ecosystems I've ever been privileged to build in: Linux.
      - waste_monk 7y ago
        >I'd respectfully disagree with this one unless the steep learning curve is a requirement to the task at hand. The task at hand is to learn basic linux. You shouldn't be editing server configs or performing other higher level tasks until you have at least a basic competency at using the system, and learning text editing with vi is one of the most basic and useful skills to have since it's ubiquitous. The reason I'm so opposed to this teaching philosophy is that "just get started developing"-first approaches instead of admin-first invariably seem to lead to sloppy and/or insecure products, and you end up with yeehaw "chmod -R 777 to make it work / SELinux is a hassle, always turn it off" developers that have to be painfully retrained once they get into the real world (or worse, are left to their own devices and you end up with horror stories like unsecured databases being exposed to the internet with PII or PCI stuff stored in it). It is impossible to develop good quality software if you don't understand the platform you're building on top of, and the concerns of the people who'll end up using your software. >I read this as "throw em in the lake, they'll learn to swim" vs. being honored to help them start I see your approach the same way - skipping the basics and throwing them in at the deep end. So many projects suffer because of lack of knowledge about systems administration, basic networking, security, etc.
- sh-run 7y ago
  I'm in the same boat. We use redhat jumpboxes for a lot of our tools at work. I'm kinda the department linux guy. It'd save me a lot of time if I could just tell people to modify their .ssh/config with nano instead of needing to explain how to navigate/insert/save/quit in vi.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gridlockd 7y ago
Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. However, beginners need to learn these tools if they want to become even somewhat proficient on UNIX systems. No pain, no gain.
- farisjarrah 7y ago
  We do not all agree that vi is poorly conceived and awful to use. Its a great tool if you know how to use it. Furthermore, in today's world its entirely possible to be an extremely proficient systems administrator without being proficient at Vi. My co-worker is a senior DevOps engineer and uses nano and VS Code exclusively, no vi or vim at all. I will concede that Vi is extremely beginner unfriendly though.
- PHGamer 7y ago
  sacrilege.
- Seirdy 7y ago
  > Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. I disagree with everything in this sentence. (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS).
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS). Don't forget about the Dvorak keyboard. It doesn't work without Dvorak.
    - Seirdy 7y ago
      I should really make a list of things I would change if we could adopt better standards free of legacy. Dvorak would be included; the only reason I haven't learned left-handed Programmer's Dvorak is because most devices don't make it trivial to change the keyboard layout.
james_s_tayler 7y ago
Do it!
kpU8efre7r 7y ago
As a Vim user, this is a good idea.
- equalunique 7y ago
  As a vim user, I too agree. Vim is my favorite editor, but the learning curve being a barrier to adoption is an undeniable fact. Just would hate to have vi dropped entirely, like it is in NixOS / GuixSD. Also, I can't recommend vimtutor enough to anyone new to it who doesn't have nano at their disposal. Would prefer if something like nano but non-GPL was available for the BSDs.

20 points by equalunique 7y ago

I think this is one of the best things you can do to make the Linux CLI more accessible. I love vim for a lot of reasons but when I'm mentoring someone who's just starting out I skip straight past it for nano because I don't want the people I'm teaching to get bogged down in something that is super terse... New vim users almost always have to use a cheatsheet and I'd rather not inflict that on someone who's dipping their toes into Linux. Once you get a bit further into the OS and what you can do I find vim to be an important tool to learn. Changing your editor or shell is super easy to do and anyone who has a strong preference can update either within seconds.

kjeetgill 7y ago
I get what you're saying, but I think it's generally wrongheaded to tailor Linux defaults to new users. We're all beginners for only a fraction of our time on a platform after all. I used nano until I got on my feet too and I'd love for it to be added to the standards so it's always present. But the goal of good POSIXy defaults are for transferable consistent experiences/skills. I think defaults should be things you'd want for typical real world use, not to upgrade off of. Edit: To clarify: I think accounting for beginners is important! But I don't think using crippled defaults are the way to do that.
- gowld 7y ago
  Ed is the standard text editor. https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html Surely you can set EDITOR on any machine you are doing real work on, which isn't going to be a fresh default installation. OK, so the default should be vi, and damn the newbies... and the emacs users?
- folkhack 7y ago
  > "it's generally wrongheaded to tailor Linux defaults to new users" > "I think accounting for beginners is important!" I read this as two conflicting statements. > But I don't think using crippled defaults are the way to do that. I disagree that nano is a "crippled default" - nano is a highly competent text editor and I see plenty of industry professionals use it daily.
  - jraph 7y ago
    Yes, and probably more usable than vi (not talking about vim) and its features are more than enough to edit configuration files. It has copy paste of a line or an arbitrary chunk of text (I learned that last week! But I often use the copy paste functionality of the terminal emulator anyway), syntax highlighting, undo redo, line numbers, search and replace. Access to these features is efficient. It's also fast and lightweight. All the characteristics of a good default terminal text editor. Free us from vi! :-)
- artsyca 7y ago
  Nothing wrong with an immediately steep learning curve it's only hard until it isn't
  - folkhack 7y ago
    I'd respectfully disagree with this one unless the steep learning curve is a requirement to the task at hand. I mentor/teach with an "ability outwards" approach... ie: I want to get my students a simple capability first, and then "add tools to the toolbox" second. Typically, their first project is a small webserver with a database behind it (nginx static config first, then moving to a nginx + MariaDB + $their_preferred_language stack; all on Ubuntu Server). Since that's a non-trivial task I want to keep the details as simple as possible, so they can focus on things that matter. Typically I won't teach vi/vim/sed/awk etc. until after they can accomplish actual work within the OS. Although I see complex text manipulation as important, I see it as additional tooling vs. a concept they can anchor their learning experience to. > Nothing wrong with an immediately steep learning curve it's only hard until it isn't I read this as "throw em in the lake, they'll learn to swim" vs. being honored to help them start in one of the most powerful ecosystems I've ever been privileged to build in: Linux.
    - waste_monk 7y ago
      >I'd respectfully disagree with this one unless the steep learning curve is a requirement to the task at hand. The task at hand is to learn basic linux. You shouldn't be editing server configs or performing other higher level tasks until you have at least a basic competency at using the system, and learning text editing with vi is one of the most basic and useful skills to have since it's ubiquitous. The reason I'm so opposed to this teaching philosophy is that "just get started developing"-first approaches instead of admin-first invariably seem to lead to sloppy and/or insecure products, and you end up with yeehaw "chmod -R 777 to make it work / SELinux is a hassle, always turn it off" developers that have to be painfully retrained once they get into the real world (or worse, are left to their own devices and you end up with horror stories like unsecured databases being exposed to the internet with PII or PCI stuff stored in it). It is impossible to develop good quality software if you don't understand the platform you're building on top of, and the concerns of the people who'll end up using your software. >I read this as "throw em in the lake, they'll learn to swim" vs. being honored to help them start I see your approach the same way - skipping the basics and throwing them in at the deep end. So many projects suffer because of lack of knowledge about systems administration, basic networking, security, etc.
sh-run 7y ago
I'm in the same boat. We use redhat jumpboxes for a lot of our tools at work. I'm kinda the department linux guy. It'd save me a lot of time if I could just tell people to modify their .ssh/config with nano instead of needing to explain how to navigate/insert/save/quit in vi.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gridlockd 7y ago

Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. However, beginners need to learn these tools if they want to become even somewhat proficient on UNIX systems. No pain, no gain.

farisjarrah 7y ago
We do not all agree that vi is poorly conceived and awful to use. Its a great tool if you know how to use it. Furthermore, in today's world its entirely possible to be an extremely proficient systems administrator without being proficient at Vi. My co-worker is a senior DevOps engineer and uses nano and VS Code exclusively, no vi or vim at all. I will concede that Vi is extremely beginner unfriendly though.
PHGamer 7y ago
sacrilege.
Seirdy 7y ago
> Undoubtedly, we can all agree that vi, like all other UNIX tools, is poorly conceived and awful to use. I disagree with everything in this sentence. (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS).
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > (neo)vim + Unix tools make the best IDE in existence. Nothing else to date can hold a candle to that combination (except, perhaps, Plan 9 or Inferno OS). Don't forget about the Dvorak keyboard. It doesn't work without Dvorak.
  - Seirdy 7y ago
    I should really make a list of things I would change if we could adopt better standards free of legacy. Dvorak would be included; the only reason I haven't learned left-handed Programmer's Dvorak is because most devices don't make it trivial to change the keyboard layout.

james_s_tayler 7y ago

Do it!

kpU8efre7r 7y ago

As a Vim user, this is a good idea.

equalunique 7y ago
As a vim user, I too agree. Vim is my favorite editor, but the learning curve being a barrier to adoption is an undeniable fact. Just would hate to have vi dropped entirely, like it is in NixOS / GuixSD. Also, I can't recommend vimtutor enough to anyone new to it who doesn't have nano at their disposal. Would prefer if something like nano but non-GPL was available for the BSDs.