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Well, it's at least different than sending it to your ISP, which I'm sure most users do by default. The question is, do you trust CloudFlare or your ISP more?

Well, it's at least different than sending it to your ISP, which I'm sure most users do by default. The question is, do you trust CloudFlare or your ISP more? I hope more DNS servers support DNS over HTTPS soon because my options for using it are: - CloudFlare - self hosted with CloudFlare's code Not a lot of options there...

sheogorath 7y ago
You might want to take a look at my repository: https://git.shivering-isles.com/container-library/dns-over-https https://git.shivering-isles.com/container-library/dns-over-h... It's not that complicated to run DoH, one just has to do it.
turbinerneiter 7y ago
My ISP. They are regulated and I pay them. If they do stuff I don't want I can complain and switch. I have not relationship with Cloudfare. I don't want them to have data about me. I never signed a contract with them.
- olyjohn 7y ago
  > If they do stuff I don't want I can complain and switch. You must be one of the lucky few.
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > My ISP. They are regulated and I pay them. Depending on the regulations (this is true some of the EU) On the other hand, Cloudflare has larger customers who also often have an interest in your privacy (the services you are using). And CloudFlare isn't a government granted monopoly, so both their customers and their users have more ability to switch.
- babypuncher 7y ago
  Tell me more about this magical place you live with more than one high speed ISP.
  - jeltz 7y ago
    I think that is actually plenty of countries. Most countries do not have an ISP oligopoly like the US, Canada or Australia.
    - foxrob92 7y ago
      The parts of Australia with NBN (read: about 90% of houses in the country) have choice in ISP. I'm not sure of the split between all the FTTx options, so they may not all count as "high speed".
  - isostatic 7y ago
    The UK for starters, I have a large choice, from A&A to Zen. The last mile fibre is provided by a company called OpenReach. I don't deal with them, they sell the service to the ISPs at a regulated wholesale price, it's those ISPs that add their services (like IP connectivity, transit, etc) onto the top
rndgermandude 7y ago
I am in Germany, so I trust my ISP more than I do cloudflare. If mozilla ran their own DNS servers and made Firefox use those, that would be better, but I'd still trust my German ISP, with which I got a contract and which is regulated by German and European law, in particular privacy law. The only thing in favor of mozilla and cloudflare from my particular point of view is that I trust them slightly more not to get massively breached. Now, if I were in the US, I might arrive at very different conclusions, given how lax consumer protection laws are in general, how the US ISPs have a (recent) history of collecting and selling data and using other dirty tricks (like redirecting NXDOMAIN to their own adservers), and how in many if not most places in the US you have no freedom of choice in ISPs and are essentially subject to an ISP monopoly or duopoly in your area.
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  The Cloudflare privacy policy for 1.1.1.1 actually seems entirely reasonable, and the service just isn't that big so I can actually understand it: https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-privacy/privacy-policy/privacy-policy/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-priv.... Cloudflare does have sales offices and, obviously, servers in Europe, so GDPR should apply. Deutsche Telekom isn't exactly evil, but it just handles far more data, of far higher value, including many bespoke government and business networks, phone networks, etc. The risk of their network being compromised seems higher. ISPs have historically been evil far more often than other types of businesses, because they often are in the strong position of being the only or one of just a few options, and because switching ISPs is far more hassle than choosing one website over another. I would consider the chance of Telekom trying to squeeze another buck out of the relationship to be far higher than Cloudflare. IIRC Telekom did at some point get into the NXDOMAIN game?
smileysteve 7y ago
With Cloudflare, you also have to realize that any site that uses them that you are visiting could possibly already be being tracked. To those saying that you are paying your ISP, Cloudflare has customers with much more buying power than you that might want to guarantee this privacy -- and less government granted monopoly power than an isp.
JohnFen 7y ago
> do you trust CloudFlare or your ISP more? I trust them about the same.
jeltz 7y ago
I do not really trust either but if I had to chose I trust my ISP more. Also my ISP can log HSTS headers anyway.

sheogorath 7y ago

You might want to take a look at my repository: https://git.shivering-isles.com/container-library/dns-over-https https://git.shivering-isles.com/container-library/dns-over-h... It's not that complicated to run DoH, one just has to do it.

turbinerneiter 7y ago

My ISP. They are regulated and I pay them. If they do stuff I don't want I can complain and switch. I have not relationship with Cloudfare. I don't want them to have data about me. I never signed a contract with them.

olyjohn 7y ago
> If they do stuff I don't want I can complain and switch. You must be one of the lucky few.
smileysteve 7y ago
> My ISP. They are regulated and I pay them. Depending on the regulations (this is true some of the EU) On the other hand, Cloudflare has larger customers who also often have an interest in your privacy (the services you are using). And CloudFlare isn't a government granted monopoly, so both their customers and their users have more ability to switch.
babypuncher 7y ago
Tell me more about this magical place you live with more than one high speed ISP.
- jeltz 7y ago
  I think that is actually plenty of countries. Most countries do not have an ISP oligopoly like the US, Canada or Australia.
  - foxrob92 7y ago
    The parts of Australia with NBN (read: about 90% of houses in the country) have choice in ISP. I'm not sure of the split between all the FTTx options, so they may not all count as "high speed".
- isostatic 7y ago
  The UK for starters, I have a large choice, from A&A to Zen. The last mile fibre is provided by a company called OpenReach. I don't deal with them, they sell the service to the ISPs at a regulated wholesale price, it's those ISPs that add their services (like IP connectivity, transit, etc) onto the top

rndgermandude 7y ago

I am in Germany, so I trust my ISP more than I do cloudflare. If mozilla ran their own DNS servers and made Firefox use those, that would be better, but I'd still trust my German ISP, with which I got a contract and which is regulated by German and European law, in particular privacy law. The only thing in favor of mozilla and cloudflare from my particular point of view is that I trust them slightly more not to get massively breached. Now, if I were in the US, I might arrive at very different conclusions, given how lax consumer protection laws are in general, how the US ISPs have a (recent) history of collecting and selling data and using other dirty tricks (like redirecting NXDOMAIN to their own adservers), and how in many if not most places in the US you have no freedom of choice in ISPs and are essentially subject to an ISP monopoly or duopoly in your area.

IAmEveryone 7y ago
The Cloudflare privacy policy for 1.1.1.1 actually seems entirely reasonable, and the service just isn't that big so I can actually understand it: https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-privacy/privacy-policy/privacy-policy/ https://developers.cloudflare.com/1.1.1.1/commitment-to-priv.... Cloudflare does have sales offices and, obviously, servers in Europe, so GDPR should apply. Deutsche Telekom isn't exactly evil, but it just handles far more data, of far higher value, including many bespoke government and business networks, phone networks, etc. The risk of their network being compromised seems higher. ISPs have historically been evil far more often than other types of businesses, because they often are in the strong position of being the only or one of just a few options, and because switching ISPs is far more hassle than choosing one website over another. I would consider the chance of Telekom trying to squeeze another buck out of the relationship to be far higher than Cloudflare. IIRC Telekom did at some point get into the NXDOMAIN game?

smileysteve 7y ago

With Cloudflare, you also have to realize that any site that uses them that you are visiting could possibly already be being tracked. To those saying that you are paying your ISP, Cloudflare has customers with much more buying power than you that might want to guarantee this privacy -- and less government granted monopoly power than an isp.

JohnFen 7y ago

> do you trust CloudFlare or your ISP more? I trust them about the same.

jeltz 7y ago

I do not really trust either but if I had to chose I trust my ISP more. Also my ISP can log HSTS headers anyway.