4 ms·

500 years of foundation? I guess the history of the Mesoamericans who lived there prior to their genocide by the Europeans isn't available?

by dm3730 7y ago

iguy 7y ago
They didn't found a city called Havana, that's all.
- dm3730 7y ago
  You clearly missed my point. But that's okay since I presume your intentions and support of colonialization is clear.
  - iguy 7y ago
    This may surprise you, but I wasn't around in the 16th century to either support or oppose anyone's actions, let alone their intentions.
    - dm3730 7y ago
      You are here now supporting past actions and intentions.
  - dang 7y ago
    "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
osmay88 7y ago
I recommend you to read history. There was no genocide in Cuba. Some people people die from sickness brought by Europeans and right after the discovery the Queen of Spain at the time ruled that the native couldn't be enslaved. So the ones who didn't die were simply blend into society. Btw I'm Cuban myself.
- dm3730 7y ago
  > I recommend you to read history. There was no genocide in Cuba Perhaps your history is written by Spaniards. I notice you didn't give any specific books to read. I'll do you a favour. Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/Brevisima-relacion-destruicion-Humanidades-Humanities/dp/8420659177 https://www.amazon.com/Brevisima-relacion-destruicion-Humani... The cover is "A 16th-century illustration by Flemish Protestant Theodor de Bry for Las Casas's Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias, depicting Spanish atrocities during the conquest of Cuba"
  - Darmody 7y ago
    I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong. While some atrocities did happen there was no genocide at all. That's why the old Spanish Empire in America is full of indigenous and mixed people. In coutrines like Bolivia the indigenous population is like 80%. How's that possible with? 500 years ago the Spanish crown forbid by slavery and declared that all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone. They also encouraged mixed marriages, something that wasn't allowed in the US until the 60's if I'm not mistaken. I could tell you also how the some Mexican tribes allied with around 600 Spaniards to overthrow the Aztec Empire because they were the slaughters. Or how Blas de Lezo defended Cartagena de Indias from the British and saved thousand of indigenous which would've died in hands of the attackers. That's why you can find 500 year old Spanish cities and universities in America. I won't judge actions made 500 ago by today's standards but I won't throw unfunded accusations either.
    - eesmith 7y ago
      Las Casas's reaction to the atrocities, which the depiction shows, lead him to advocate for abolition of slavery. That is, dm3730's comment concerns events which took place before slavery was prohibited, while your response concerns a later period of time, making it a rather inapplicable comment. And I'll note that Spain had African slaves (not abolished in Cuba until 1886), and allowed slavery of indigenous people who rebelled against Spanish rule. There's a debate over the genocide question. Eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_and_accusations_of_ethnocide_or_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_an... says: > Raphael Lemkin (coiner of the term genocide) considers Spain's abuses of the native population of the Americas to constitute cultural and even outright genocide including the abuses of the Encomienda system. Do note also the "Skepticism toward alleged demographic declines and accusations of genocide" section on the same page. The encomienda system allowed for forced labor, with severe punishment for not complying. But no, it wasn't, technically, slavery. You ask "How's that possible [that the indigenous population of Bolivia is like 80%." Where's the incompatibility? Tell me, what's the indigenous population of Cuba? The US genocide of the indigenous Californians killed something like 90% of the indigenous population. But there's no similar genocide of the indigenous Hawaiians or Alaskans. Does the lack of a US genocide in one place mean that there was no genocide anywhere? Clearly no. So your example doesn't prove anything. You write "all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone". That's like saying that the US founders believed that "all men are created equal." First off, did conversos have the same rights as non-conversos? Second, do you believe the sistema de castas did not exist, or had negligible effect? Because, to quote from https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/60962114/Oxford_Religion_and_Race20191020-94076-dl7uem.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DReligion_and_Race_in_the_Early_Modern_Ib.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20191118%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20191118T194855Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=5725c3ee357a6de14ca1be5352dadeda9b2ae213aec68259b5a2ba3c51d88fc2 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/60962114/Oxf... "Yet, there were very real spiritual and social consequences tied to this system in which Indians and Africans were deemed to be of lesser spiritual ability, received a watered-down version of the faith, and were relegated to an inferior spiritual status within the religious fold. ... That culture of inferiority and suspicion around the purity of their religious belief and practice was reinforced socially and spatially throughout colonial society. Because they were perceived as constantly in need of correction, colonial controls on their bodies and souls were all the more heightened. In addition to limited access to the sacraments,Indians and Africans experienced heavy regulation of their spiritual and social activities. Indians were regularly restricted to reducciones as a means of taming their natural inclinations to better prepare them for proper Christian practice. Africans were subject to the jurisdiction of the Inquisition to regulate any unorthodox or immoral behavior. Confraternities and religious brotherhoods, arguably the most active aspect of popular religious life in the Spanish and Portuguese Americas, were often segregated by casta category or ethnic origin, with whites holding positions of power to monitor their ritual practice." Hardly an example of "same rights", no?
throw51319 7y ago
Dude the history of humans is brutal. The only way societies consolidated and culture formed is through the battles and conquers of the past. We're now at a point where we have the prescience to not repeat the past. But just respect that that is how you yourself are alive on this planet. Your ancestors killed and conquered the resources of others, and that's how they propagated to get to you. It's foolish to believe otherwise.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > It's foolish to believe otherwise. Where do they believe otherwise? They're merely mentioning that the city was populated prior to the genocide. You're defending atrocities against a specter of your own imagination.
  - throw51319 7y ago
    In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization, etc. And also I'm not "defending against my imagination"... there's so many commenters that think history is so reprehensible and modern day people should be directly guilty for things that happened 500 years ago.
    - ianleeclark 7y ago
      > In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?
      - throw51319 7y ago
        I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.

500 years of foundation? I guess the history of the Mesoamericans who lived there prior to their genocide by the Europeans isn't available?

by dm3730 7y ago

500 years of foundation? I guess the history of the Mesoamericans who lived there prior to their genocide by the Europeans isn't available?

iguy 7y ago

They didn't found a city called Havana, that's all.

dm3730 7y ago
You clearly missed my point. But that's okay since I presume your intentions and support of colonialization is clear.
- iguy 7y ago
  This may surprise you, but I wasn't around in the 16th century to either support or oppose anyone's actions, let alone their intentions.
  - dm3730 7y ago
    You are here now supporting past actions and intentions.
- dang 7y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

osmay88 7y ago

I recommend you to read history. There was no genocide in Cuba. Some people people die from sickness brought by Europeans and right after the discovery the Queen of Spain at the time ruled that the native couldn't be enslaved. So the ones who didn't die were simply blend into society. Btw I'm Cuban myself.

dm3730 7y ago
> I recommend you to read history. There was no genocide in Cuba Perhaps your history is written by Spaniards. I notice you didn't give any specific books to read. I'll do you a favour. Here's one: https://www.amazon.com/Brevisima-relacion-destruicion-Humanidades-Humanities/dp/8420659177 https://www.amazon.com/Brevisima-relacion-destruicion-Humani... The cover is "A 16th-century illustration by Flemish Protestant Theodor de Bry for Las Casas's Brevisima relación de la destrucción de las Indias, depicting Spanish atrocities during the conquest of Cuba"
- Darmody 7y ago
  I'm sorry but you're absolutely wrong. While some atrocities did happen there was no genocide at all. That's why the old Spanish Empire in America is full of indigenous and mixed people. In coutrines like Bolivia the indigenous population is like 80%. How's that possible with? 500 years ago the Spanish crown forbid by slavery and declared that all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone. They also encouraged mixed marriages, something that wasn't allowed in the US until the 60's if I'm not mistaken. I could tell you also how the some Mexican tribes allied with around 600 Spaniards to overthrow the Aztec Empire because they were the slaughters. Or how Blas de Lezo defended Cartagena de Indias from the British and saved thousand of indigenous which would've died in hands of the attackers. That's why you can find 500 year old Spanish cities and universities in America. I won't judge actions made 500 ago by today's standards but I won't throw unfunded accusations either.
  - eesmith 7y ago
    Las Casas's reaction to the atrocities, which the depiction shows, lead him to advocate for abolition of slavery. That is, dm3730's comment concerns events which took place before slavery was prohibited, while your response concerns a later period of time, making it a rather inapplicable comment. And I'll note that Spain had African slaves (not abolished in Cuba until 1886), and allowed slavery of indigenous people who rebelled against Spanish rule. There's a debate over the genocide question. Eg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_and_accusations_of_ethnocide_or_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_an... says: > Raphael Lemkin (coiner of the term genocide) considers Spain's abuses of the native population of the Americas to constitute cultural and even outright genocide including the abuses of the Encomienda system. Do note also the "Skepticism toward alleged demographic declines and accusations of genocide" section on the same page. The encomienda system allowed for forced labor, with severe punishment for not complying. But no, it wasn't, technically, slavery. You ask "How's that possible [that the indigenous population of Bolivia is like 80%." Where's the incompatibility? Tell me, what's the indigenous population of Cuba? The US genocide of the indigenous Californians killed something like 90% of the indigenous population. But there's no similar genocide of the indigenous Hawaiians or Alaskans. Does the lack of a US genocide in one place mean that there was no genocide anywhere? Clearly no. So your example doesn't prove anything. You write "all indigenous people had the same rights as anyone". That's like saying that the US founders believed that "all men are created equal." First off, did conversos have the same rights as non-conversos? Second, do you believe the sistema de castas did not exist, or had negligible effect? Because, to quote from https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/60962114/Oxford_Religion_and_Race20191020-94076-dl7uem.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DReligion_and_Race_in_the_Early_Modern_Ib.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20191118%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20191118T194855Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=5725c3ee357a6de14ca1be5352dadeda9b2ae213aec68259b5a2ba3c51d88fc2 https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/60962114/Oxf... "Yet, there were very real spiritual and social consequences tied to this system in which Indians and Africans were deemed to be of lesser spiritual ability, received a watered-down version of the faith, and were relegated to an inferior spiritual status within the religious fold. ... That culture of inferiority and suspicion around the purity of their religious belief and practice was reinforced socially and spatially throughout colonial society. Because they were perceived as constantly in need of correction, colonial controls on their bodies and souls were all the more heightened. In addition to limited access to the sacraments,Indians and Africans experienced heavy regulation of their spiritual and social activities. Indians were regularly restricted to reducciones as a means of taming their natural inclinations to better prepare them for proper Christian practice. Africans were subject to the jurisdiction of the Inquisition to regulate any unorthodox or immoral behavior. Confraternities and religious brotherhoods, arguably the most active aspect of popular religious life in the Spanish and Portuguese Americas, were often segregated by casta category or ethnic origin, with whites holding positions of power to monitor their ritual practice." Hardly an example of "same rights", no?

throw51319 7y ago

Dude the history of humans is brutal. The only way societies consolidated and culture formed is through the battles and conquers of the past. We're now at a point where we have the prescience to not repeat the past. But just respect that that is how you yourself are alive on this planet. Your ancestors killed and conquered the resources of others, and that's how they propagated to get to you. It's foolish to believe otherwise.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> It's foolish to believe otherwise. Where do they believe otherwise? They're merely mentioning that the city was populated prior to the genocide. You're defending atrocities against a specter of your own imagination.
- throw51319 7y ago
  In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization, etc. And also I'm not "defending against my imagination"... there's so many commenters that think history is so reprehensible and modern day people should be directly guilty for things that happened 500 years ago.
  - ianleeclark 7y ago
    > In their 2nd comment below you can see that they are trying to call out the colonization Why do you feel the need to defend against the horrors of colonialism?
    - throw51319 7y ago
      I'm not. I feel the need to show being realistic about the past instead of having an emotional response. "Omg people conquered other people, that is bad!" Very infantile view of a complex world/history, where every single group in every single nook and cranny of every continent has done this in the past.