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Not sure if the boring company approach is a bad solution. For 30 years, I have heard from environmentalists that electric cars will need to have short range a

Not sure if the boring company approach is a bad solution. For 30 years, I have heard from environmentalists that electric cars will need to have short range and shitty performance, but we have to outlaw ICE cars anyway for the greater good. There comes Tesla and builds a car that is just objectively better in every metric than an ICE car. Now my next car when my 13 year old Prius gives up the ghost will be a Model 3. For public transport it is similar. Offer me something that is better in every way than a car (on demand, point to point, with privacy), and I will happily use it instead of a car. A self-driving taxi fleet with dedicated right of way, as envisioned by the boring company, would fit the bill. If the boring company plans don't work out, a high frequency electric bus system with dedicated rights of way would fit the bill, with something like trackless trams (http://theconversation.com/why-trackless-trams-are-ready-to-replace-light-rail-103690 http://theconversation.com/why-trackless-trams-are-ready-to-...) for the very high demand parts. But don't try to sell me a tram as the best 21st century solution for transit and then try to outlaw all the alternatives...

bildung 7y ago
From an environmental POV electric cars will change almost nothing. The energy per passenger mile is still terrible as you still need to move, in the case of Tesla, at least 2500kg of material to move 1 person. For meaningful energy savings the transportation model itself has to change. Here is one example for Hamburg, Germany, showing over 80% decrease in CO2 emission by shifting to public transport: http://www.mobilitaet-in-deutschland.de/pdf/infas_Vortrag_ifeuWorkshop.pdf http://www.mobilitaet-in-deutschland.de/pdf/infas_Vortrag_if... p.18)
- rklaehn 7y ago
  What if the energy comes from solar? Then the energy consumption does not matter that much. Also, even a tesla is not 2500kg and many people with family rarely drive with a single occupant. Also, have you looked at the energy consumption of light or suburban rail? It might look somewhat attractive if you assume that the rail cars are packed, but in reality where they often drive almost empty at night and during off hours, the numbers are actually pretty bad. Electric buses are much better, but even they have the huge downside that they run according to a schedule, don't go where you want to go, and offer no privacy.
  - bildung 7y ago
    > What if the energy comes from solar? The energy source is an orthogonal topic. Public transport is far easier to convert to renewable sources because the number of stakeholders is usually in the single digits. > Also, even a tesla is not 2500kg A model X is 2500kg, a model S is 2100 kg. > many people with family rarely drive with a single occupant. For Europe, the average is 1.4 people per car: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/occupancy-rates-of-passenger-vehicles/occupancy-rates-of-passenger-vehicles https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/occupancy... > Also, have you looked at the energy consumption of light or suburban rail? Yes, and I've even linked a source showing that energy used per passenger mile is 8 times higher with cars :) Edit: That light rail is more efficient also makes sense if you look at weight and capacity of trains: The local commuter trains around here have a weight of about 105t, so about 50 teslas. But they fit up to 500 people. Power is 2400kW - you can transport 500 people for the power equivalent of 10 Tesla model S. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423
    - rklaehn 7y ago
      > A model X is 2500kg, a model S is 2100 kg. It is also about twice as big as a typical European car. Even a model 3 is on the big side. The most produced electric car by tesla is the model 3, which is much lighter. 1611kg, not even that much heavier than my Prius. > For Europe, the average is 1.4 people per car For the people (families with young kids) that are most in need of a car, the average occupancy is much higher. > Edit: That light rail is more efficient also makes sense if you look at weight and capacity of trains: The local commuter trains around here have a weight of about 105t, so about 50 teslas. But they fit up to 500 people. Power is 2400kW - you can transport 500 people for the power equivalent of 10 Tesla model S. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 So light rail/commuter rail is more efficient than an electric car when you assume that the car is single occupant and the light train is fully packed. That is a way of tipping the scales, but not an honest argument. Trains are never fully packed except maybe during rush hour. Besides, traveling in a fully packed train is horrible. I know, I frequently have to take Munich public transport with exactly the 423...
- jtx22 7y ago
  The most important factor in innovation and progress is INCREASING the capability / confort / convenience of the average person. Your ideas are the complete opposite of that.
bluGill 7y ago
Private transit as you propose can only exist in suburbs where everybody has large lots, and will be more expensive than owning your own car. Those private cars will always take up a lot of space per person. If you live someplace where you take the shared tram for the vast majority of trips, then what you propose can work for the few trips where you the tram doesn't work. How often do you really need the private space? If it is all the time you have agreed to forever live in suburban sprawl, with potentially long commutes.
aguyfromnb 7y ago
>There comes Tesla and builds a car that is just objectively better in every metric than an ICE car. Wait, what? I can think of many metrics where Teslas are not "objectively better" than ICE cars, one of which is price. Why buy a Model 3 when you can buy a used Prius or Corolla, and spend the money you save on energy saving measures around your home?

bildung 7y ago

From an environmental POV electric cars will change almost nothing. The energy per passenger mile is still terrible as you still need to move, in the case of Tesla, at least 2500kg of material to move 1 person. For meaningful energy savings the transportation model itself has to change. Here is one example for Hamburg, Germany, showing over 80% decrease in CO2 emission by shifting to public transport: http://www.mobilitaet-in-deutschland.de/pdf/infas_Vortrag_ifeuWorkshop.pdf http://www.mobilitaet-in-deutschland.de/pdf/infas_Vortrag_if... p.18)

rklaehn 7y ago
What if the energy comes from solar? Then the energy consumption does not matter that much. Also, even a tesla is not 2500kg and many people with family rarely drive with a single occupant. Also, have you looked at the energy consumption of light or suburban rail? It might look somewhat attractive if you assume that the rail cars are packed, but in reality where they often drive almost empty at night and during off hours, the numbers are actually pretty bad. Electric buses are much better, but even they have the huge downside that they run according to a schedule, don't go where you want to go, and offer no privacy.
- bildung 7y ago
  > What if the energy comes from solar? The energy source is an orthogonal topic. Public transport is far easier to convert to renewable sources because the number of stakeholders is usually in the single digits. > Also, even a tesla is not 2500kg A model X is 2500kg, a model S is 2100 kg. > many people with family rarely drive with a single occupant. For Europe, the average is 1.4 people per car: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/occupancy-rates-of-passenger-vehicles/occupancy-rates-of-passenger-vehicles https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/occupancy... > Also, have you looked at the energy consumption of light or suburban rail? Yes, and I've even linked a source showing that energy used per passenger mile is 8 times higher with cars :) Edit: That light rail is more efficient also makes sense if you look at weight and capacity of trains: The local commuter trains around here have a weight of about 105t, so about 50 teslas. But they fit up to 500 people. Power is 2400kW - you can transport 500 people for the power equivalent of 10 Tesla model S. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423
  - rklaehn 7y ago
    > A model X is 2500kg, a model S is 2100 kg. It is also about twice as big as a typical European car. Even a model 3 is on the big side. The most produced electric car by tesla is the model 3, which is much lighter. 1611kg, not even that much heavier than my Prius. > For Europe, the average is 1.4 people per car For the people (families with young kids) that are most in need of a car, the average occupancy is much higher. > Edit: That light rail is more efficient also makes sense if you look at weight and capacity of trains: The local commuter trains around here have a weight of about 105t, so about 50 teslas. But they fit up to 500 people. Power is 2400kW - you can transport 500 people for the power equivalent of 10 Tesla model S. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-Baureihe_423 So light rail/commuter rail is more efficient than an electric car when you assume that the car is single occupant and the light train is fully packed. That is a way of tipping the scales, but not an honest argument. Trains are never fully packed except maybe during rush hour. Besides, traveling in a fully packed train is horrible. I know, I frequently have to take Munich public transport with exactly the 423...
jtx22 7y ago
The most important factor in innovation and progress is INCREASING the capability / confort / convenience of the average person. Your ideas are the complete opposite of that.

bluGill 7y ago

Private transit as you propose can only exist in suburbs where everybody has large lots, and will be more expensive than owning your own car. Those private cars will always take up a lot of space per person. If you live someplace where you take the shared tram for the vast majority of trips, then what you propose can work for the few trips where you the tram doesn't work. How often do you really need the private space? If it is all the time you have agreed to forever live in suburban sprawl, with potentially long commutes.

aguyfromnb 7y ago

>There comes Tesla and builds a car that is just objectively better in every metric than an ICE car. Wait, what? I can think of many metrics where Teslas are not "objectively better" than ICE cars, one of which is price. Why buy a Model 3 when you can buy a used Prius or Corolla, and spend the money you save on energy saving measures around your home?