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I am constantly surprised by people who call themselves "hackers" not exploring the entire site. I always had the idea that being a hacker was that one didn't

I am constantly surprised by people who call themselves "hackers" not exploring the entire site. I always had the idea that being a hacker was that one didn't ask "What does this do?", but instead asks: "What can I make this do?" Exploration is at the heart of hacking. It's odd that people don't know about, for example, the "lists" page. The link is there. ADDED IN EDIT: I see that at least one person has down-voted this comment. Do you disagree? Do you think hacking is something else? Or are you simply stung by the apparent criticism, and feel the need to lash out? Do you not have the instinct to explore? Is that not a critical part of being a hacker? (And in a further edit - clearly someone agrees and has up-voted again. Interesting.)

solipsist 16y ago
You're right that "hackers" should be able to explore and navigate by themselves, but why should they have to? Do you think pg intends to scatter all the links to these special pages in order to ensure that we're true "hackers"? No, he simply hasn't gotten around to putting them all in a central location. You are basically saying that we need to make life hard for all the "hackers" just because they should be able to deal with the unnecessary challenge that we give them. ADDED IN EDIT: > Do you not have the instinct to explore? Is that not a critical part of being a hacker? It's the nature of a hacker to explore, but this nature exists for a reason. We use our talents when we have to, but that does not mean we like it or need the practice. Most people come to HN for quick information. Telling them to spend unnecessary time looking around the site in their spare time is asking too much for some users. While it may not seem big to you and me, it probably does to others. What's funny about this debate is that is trivial to fix it. Add a page with all the links and you're done. Saves everyone time. It seems as if a lot of people are divided on this topic. I've seen you been downvoted and upvoted a few times in past 10 or 15 minutes already. Let's see what others have to say.
charlief 16y ago
I am a user of the lists functionality, but in all fairness, novice HN users can come in many forms. There are some industry experts that simply read the front page briefly and go back to their work. There is an opportunity cost to exploring something hard-to-find, and some people may be better off spending the time exploring or hacking something else outside of HN. I agree with your point, but not the generalizations that accompany it.
jaxn 16y ago
I don't really hack my car either. I have a couple of times, but it is not something that I feel driven to do. Same is true for my washing machine. I don't think I even understand all of the settings. Yet I use it regularly. Does that mean I am not a hacker? How many hacks must a hacker hack for a hacker to hack hacks?
drivingmenuts 16y ago
Whoa. Calm down on the condescension, dude. Am I a hacker? Dunno. I don't self-identify as one. Doing so is not that important to me. Neither are lists and score-keeping on this particular site.
nkurz 16y ago
I do consider myself a hacker, but don't feel any urge to explore the nooks and crannies of this site. I've downloaded and skimmed the Arc code for it, but don't feel any urge to check out all the links. I do fix my car (and my washing machine) but don't have an urge to modify them. Partly it's a "time in the day" problem, and partly a lack of generalization. I'm more interested in learning the structure of things than the specifics of any particular implementation. I guess some people, including you, put equal emphasis on both. ps. It's odd that you ask if those who down-vote are "lashing out" but presume that those who up-vote agree with you. I voted for this, not out of agreement, but because it's a valid viewpoint, well-expressed, a starting point for discussion, and the sort of post I want to encourage.
- solipsist 16y ago
  I think that's it odd that RiderOfGiraffes is even referring to particular people upvoting/downvoting him in his comment. But maybe that's just me...
arethuza 16y ago
"Is that not a critical part of being a hacker?" Possibly, but I guess most of us don't have the time to explore everything in our environment to that level. Note that this may be an age thing - 20 years ago I would obsessively explore and customize things like X window managers, editors and my Lisp environment. Now I find myself increasingly going with the defaults unless something really annoys me as, to be frank, life is too short and I have better things to be doing.

solipsist 16y ago

You're right that "hackers" should be able to explore and navigate by themselves, but why should they have to? Do you think pg intends to scatter all the links to these special pages in order to ensure that we're true "hackers"? No, he simply hasn't gotten around to putting them all in a central location. You are basically saying that we need to make life hard for all the "hackers" just because they should be able to deal with the unnecessary challenge that we give them. ADDED IN EDIT: > Do you not have the instinct to explore? Is that not a critical part of being a hacker? It's the nature of a hacker to explore, but this nature exists for a reason. We use our talents when we have to, but that does not mean we like it or need the practice. Most people come to HN for quick information. Telling them to spend unnecessary time looking around the site in their spare time is asking too much for some users. While it may not seem big to you and me, it probably does to others. What's funny about this debate is that is trivial to fix it. Add a page with all the links and you're done. Saves everyone time. It seems as if a lot of people are divided on this topic. I've seen you been downvoted and upvoted a few times in past 10 or 15 minutes already. Let's see what others have to say.

charlief 16y ago

I am a user of the lists functionality, but in all fairness, novice HN users can come in many forms. There are some industry experts that simply read the front page briefly and go back to their work. There is an opportunity cost to exploring something hard-to-find, and some people may be better off spending the time exploring or hacking something else outside of HN. I agree with your point, but not the generalizations that accompany it.

jaxn 16y ago

I don't really hack my car either. I have a couple of times, but it is not something that I feel driven to do. Same is true for my washing machine. I don't think I even understand all of the settings. Yet I use it regularly. Does that mean I am not a hacker? How many hacks must a hacker hack for a hacker to hack hacks?

drivingmenuts 16y ago

Whoa. Calm down on the condescension, dude. Am I a hacker? Dunno. I don't self-identify as one. Doing so is not that important to me. Neither are lists and score-keeping on this particular site.

nkurz 16y ago

I do consider myself a hacker, but don't feel any urge to explore the nooks and crannies of this site. I've downloaded and skimmed the Arc code for it, but don't feel any urge to check out all the links. I do fix my car (and my washing machine) but don't have an urge to modify them. Partly it's a "time in the day" problem, and partly a lack of generalization. I'm more interested in learning the structure of things than the specifics of any particular implementation. I guess some people, including you, put equal emphasis on both. ps. It's odd that you ask if those who down-vote are "lashing out" but presume that those who up-vote agree with you. I voted for this, not out of agreement, but because it's a valid viewpoint, well-expressed, a starting point for discussion, and the sort of post I want to encourage.

solipsist 16y ago
I think that's it odd that RiderOfGiraffes is even referring to particular people upvoting/downvoting him in his comment. But maybe that's just me...

arethuza 16y ago

"Is that not a critical part of being a hacker?" Possibly, but I guess most of us don't have the time to explore everything in our environment to that level. Note that this may be an age thing - 20 years ago I would obsessively explore and customize things like X window managers, editors and my Lisp environment. Now I find myself increasingly going with the defaults unless something really annoys me as, to be frank, life is too short and I have better things to be doing.