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>Maybe being native in the language makes a difference? I think this is similar to understanding dialects. My native language is German and I can make sense of

by ascar 7y ago

>Maybe being native in the language makes a difference? I think this is similar to understanding dialects. My native language is German and I can make sense of most German dialects (some are really hard tho' like Platt or Niederbayerisch). On the other hand, my English is proficient (CEFR C1/C2), but I regularly trip over dialects and even strong accents (Irish is especially hard). My personal guess is that you have memorized a much larger "network" of similar words (in meaning or sound) in your native language than in any language you learned in a structured/artificial way based on top of your native language. Fun fact: At least here in Bavaria, we often say German is our first foreign language and our dialect is our actual native language. So we already organically learned two similar languages as child.

yorwba 7y ago
Both Low German (Platt) and Bavarian are classified as separate languages from Standard German in ISO 639-3, with language codes nds and bar, respectively (as opposed to deu). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-3
- ascar 7y ago
  That did sound interesting at first, but my native dialect Franconian [1] also has an ISO 639-3 language code (vmf) and while the pronounciation from high german differs, the words and grammar are basically identical (with very few exceptions). E.g. we pronounce "t" as "d" and "k" as "g" and some "g" as "ch", but the words remain the same. (This means I learned to pronouncations for every word as a child.) The ISO 639-3 seems to actively categorize dialects and not just "languages". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Franconian_German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Franconian_German
  - yorwba 7y ago
    There has been an attempt to remove vmf from the standard (reason: such a language does not exist) in 2010, but it was rejected for formal reasons https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2010-012 https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2010-012 ISO 639-3 does aim to classify languages and not dialects, but that means the classification needs to change as the linguistic evidence is reinterpreted. For the time being, there's a test Wikipedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf I tried reading some articles, and while it mostly feels like Standard German with fantasy spelling, there were some words I didn't understand, e.g. in the article about cows: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf/Kou https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf/Kou
    - ascar 7y ago
      Ah, interesting that they tried to remove it. Edit: i just read the proposal to remove it and it was mainly, because vmf was classified as "mainfranconian" and "upperfranconian" spoken west of the city of Mainz. I agree with the proposal, it's nonsense. Mainz isn't part of the Franconian dialect region. It's basically Nürnberg and Würzburg areas and Mainz is west of Frankfurt (which speaks "hessisch" and is west of Würzburg). It's weird that the article about Franconian in Wikipedia links to the vmf language code. Looks like an error. I guess the words you didn't understand are mostly due to absurd spelling to capture the pronouncuation and the use of colloquial words in Franconian dialect (high german jetzt -> colloquial etz -> Franconian etzadla). I had trouble reading it. > A Kou (Anschbachisch: Kua, Hoaloisch: Kuâ) is a weiblichs Rind un a Väich as der Familie vo däi Honndräächer. Sie is a Nudzdier un a Milch- un Fleischlieferand. Der wilde Schdammvadder is der Aueroggs. Vor ungfähr 8000 Joahr hams a boarr vo denne eigfangd und an Menschn gweend. Däi Nachgummma davo sin edzadla unsre Käi. High german (verbatim): Eine Kuh ist ein weibliches Rind und ein Vieh aus der Familie der Hornträger. Sie ist ein Nutztier und ein Milch- und Fleischlieferant. Der wilde Stammmvater ist der Auerochse. Vor ungefähr 8000 Jahren haben sie ein paar von denen eingefangen und an Menschen gewöhnt. Die Nachkommen davon sind jetzt unsere Kühe.
dbrgn 7y ago
Regarding your fun fact: Same in parts of Switzerland where Swiss German is spoken. Swiss German is a variant of High Allemannic (with some exceptions where Highest Allemannic is spoken). We perceive German as a foreign language that is learned in school and most people are pretty bad at pronunciation (and sometimes at grammar, since some of the tenses and cases are missing in Swiss German.
- ascar 7y ago
  We usually perceive Swiss German as a different language too and not just a dialect. We usually do learn High German before attending school tho, it's not as a foreign language in school. I do remember an unfortunate situation during a summer camp in Croatia. I was sitting next to a very attractive girl from Switzerland and I was simply unable to have a conversation with her, because I couldn't understand at least half of what she was saying :(.

by ascar 7y ago

yorwba 7y ago

Both Low German (Platt) and Bavarian are classified as separate languages from Standard German in ISO 639-3, with language codes nds and bar, respectively (as opposed to deu). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_639-3

ascar 7y ago
That did sound interesting at first, but my native dialect Franconian [1] also has an ISO 639-3 language code (vmf) and while the pronounciation from high german differs, the words and grammar are basically identical (with very few exceptions). E.g. we pronounce "t" as "d" and "k" as "g" and some "g" as "ch", but the words remain the same. (This means I learned to pronouncations for every word as a child.) The ISO 639-3 seems to actively categorize dialects and not just "languages". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Franconian_German https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Franconian_German
- yorwba 7y ago
  There has been an attempt to remove vmf from the standard (reason: such a language does not exist) in 2010, but it was rejected for formal reasons https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2010-012 https://iso639-3.sil.org/request/2010-012 ISO 639-3 does aim to classify languages and not dialects, but that means the classification needs to change as the linguistic evidence is reinterpreted. For the time being, there's a test Wikipedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf I tried reading some articles, and while it mostly feels like Standard German with fantasy spelling, there were some words I didn't understand, e.g. in the article about cows: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf/Kou https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/vmf/Kou
  - ascar 7y ago
    Ah, interesting that they tried to remove it. Edit: i just read the proposal to remove it and it was mainly, because vmf was classified as "mainfranconian" and "upperfranconian" spoken west of the city of Mainz. I agree with the proposal, it's nonsense. Mainz isn't part of the Franconian dialect region. It's basically Nürnberg and Würzburg areas and Mainz is west of Frankfurt (which speaks "hessisch" and is west of Würzburg). It's weird that the article about Franconian in Wikipedia links to the vmf language code. Looks like an error. I guess the words you didn't understand are mostly due to absurd spelling to capture the pronouncuation and the use of colloquial words in Franconian dialect (high german jetzt -> colloquial etz -> Franconian etzadla). I had trouble reading it. > A Kou (Anschbachisch: Kua, Hoaloisch: Kuâ) is a weiblichs Rind un a Väich as der Familie vo däi Honndräächer. Sie is a Nudzdier un a Milch- un Fleischlieferand. Der wilde Schdammvadder is der Aueroggs. Vor ungfähr 8000 Joahr hams a boarr vo denne eigfangd und an Menschn gweend. Däi Nachgummma davo sin edzadla unsre Käi. High german (verbatim): Eine Kuh ist ein weibliches Rind und ein Vieh aus der Familie der Hornträger. Sie ist ein Nutztier und ein Milch- und Fleischlieferant. Der wilde Stammmvater ist der Auerochse. Vor ungefähr 8000 Jahren haben sie ein paar von denen eingefangen und an Menschen gewöhnt. Die Nachkommen davon sind jetzt unsere Kühe.

dbrgn 7y ago

Regarding your fun fact: Same in parts of Switzerland where Swiss German is spoken. Swiss German is a variant of High Allemannic (with some exceptions where Highest Allemannic is spoken). We perceive German as a foreign language that is learned in school and most people are pretty bad at pronunciation (and sometimes at grammar, since some of the tenses and cases are missing in Swiss German.

ascar 7y ago
We usually perceive Swiss German as a different language too and not just a dialect. We usually do learn High German before attending school tho, it's not as a foreign language in school. I do remember an unfortunate situation during a summer camp in Croatia. I was sitting next to a very attractive girl from Switzerland and I was simply unable to have a conversation with her, because I couldn't understand at least half of what she was saying :(.