4 ms·

This reminds me of the debate around not-quite-self-driving cars. Saying the product is safe to use, but that the user must be ready to do X immediately, despit

This reminds me of the debate around not-quite-self-driving cars. Saying the product is safe to use, but that the user must be ready to do X immediately, despite evidence that the users you're selling to won't be ready to do X immediately. Then when people die you get to say it was totally safe, if they'd just done what they were supposed to do. Or we could just design products that will be safe in the real world, rather than ones that could have been safe in a utopia of perfect people.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
At least most car manufacturers, apart from one(guess who that is) are honest in the marketing about what the features is, a more advanced lane assist and don't sell it as self driving.
ScalaFan 7y ago
Certain items just have a danger level that requires an elevated sense of responsibility and awareness and I don't just mean firearms. Workshop tools like power saws or table saws need to be handled with respect and care and those that cannot provide it should just not use them. Those that have worked in some kinds of environments know what I mean. Some factories or manufacturing places have lots of extra safety regulations. Those that have been in the military also know of dynamic and changing circumstances of their operating environment with all the specific equipment they use. Even on a sailboat you need to be aware of the boom.
- puzzledobserver 7y ago
  As do cars. Which is why people need licenses to drive them. The question being asked is whether it is ethical for a company to market auto-pilot low-awareness chainsaws, designed to give the user only a half-second heads-up, and then disclaim responsibility when accidents happen. Maybe the solution is for licensing authorities to call these auto-manual chimeras unlicenseable.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    There are numerous devices for which the typical individual can function well in society without making direct use of them. Skillsaws, 737-MAX airliners, full Linux server distros, and home flourine refining labs among them. Automobiles, after a century-plus of integration and mutual reinforcement of the built infrastructure and virtually all aspects of life, commerce, government, employment, recreation, education, etc., are not amongst these. It is possible, usually within narrow environments and/or with considerable compromise, to survive without owning, using, or access to one. It is exceedingly difficult, and the net household ownership rates within the US and most other Western / Industrialised countries, reveals this. The standards are different. Incidentally: I agree with your premise regarding the unacceptability of manufacuters' apparent self-driving cutout behaviours. No, this is not remotely acceptable.
    - jfim 7y ago
      It's definitely possible to survive without owning a car in multiple cities in the US, such as New York City or San Francisco. Other Western cities such as Paris, London, Zurich also can support car free lifestyles. Looking at Asia, it's definitely possible not to own a car in Japan, and the ridership numbers for the Tokyo trains show this. Even rural areas have some kind of public transportation, either through trains or local buses.
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        Nearly 90% of the eligible population in the US have a drivers license. That's the bottom line. It's definitely possible to survive without owning a car in multiple cities in the US... That is a confirmation of the qualifier I gave: "It is possible, usually within narrow environments and/or with considerable compromise, to survive without owning, using, or access to one. It is exceedingly difficult, and the net household ownership rates within the US and most other Western / Industrialised countries, reveals this." Note that owning a car is not the same as access to a car, and that in the context of understanding driving principles, car-share, hire, or borrowing a vehicle are included in use. The Uber/Lift on-demand chauffeur service or traditional taxi/limo or van/paratransit services would not require driving skills by the customer, though I strongly suspect most such customers (possibly outside Manhattan) actually do, or did, drive. For the US, household car ownership rates range from 98% to 65%: https://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html https://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-... Even creating car-free zones, streets, or blocks within US cities is problematic: https://www.governing.com/topics/urban/gov-car-free-cities.html https://www.governing.com/topics/urban/gov-car-free-cities.h... The same article correlates car ownership with wealth, or conversely, lack with poverty. Apparently, if a household can own a car, it prefers to. Eyeballing national data, similar trends appear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... Note peak ownership rates exceed 1 per person at national scale. The question of giving up driving is a significant one among senior care and living, with numerous articles easily found: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/10/08/162392507/when-should-seniors-hang-up-the-car-keys https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/10/08/1623925... https://www.seniorcaring.com/resources/talking-to-elderly-parents-about-driving https://www.seniorcaring.com/resources/talking-to-elderly-pa... https://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/senior-driving.php https://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/senior-driving.php From the NPR story: Bunni Dybnis, a social worker at the Los Angeles-based geriatric care service LivHome, says [family intervention] is typically how older drivers decide to give up the car keys: Their child or grandchild intervenes. "I could probably say it's 99.99 percent not the older adult saying, 'I want to stop driving; help me,' " says Dybnis, because giving up driving feels like giving up one's independence. I'd like to give the number of licensed drivers by state, as a percentage of population. That doesn't seem immediately available, though raw counts are: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/dl22.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/dl22.htm Note that a licensed driver is one who is certified to drive, whether or not they own a car themselves or live in a household which does. And that rate tends to be high. It also underlines my initial claim: that interacting in modern industrialised nations, and certainly the US, without any ability to directly use a car, is at best difficult and imposes numerous compromises. OK, here's a 2017 US overview, in millions: - Population: 325 - Licensed drivers: 225 - Registered vehicles: 272 https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2017/dv1c.cfm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2017/d... That's a 67% rate for registered drivers, for all ages. Population under age 18 is 22%, so 11% of otherwise age-qualified adults do not have a drivers license. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045218
kortilla 7y ago
That comparison falls flat because planes are filled with technologies where the pilot has to be ready to do X and it works fine (see autopilot).
- gamblor956 7y ago
  On planes pilots generally have time to take over if the autopilot fails. Falling from ten thousand feet takes a few minutes. On cars, if autopilot fails, the driver might have a fraction of a second to recognize the failure, take over from the AI, and initiate corrective action. Generally, there isn't sufficient time for any of these steps, let alone the first one.
- bathtub365 7y ago
  Pilots have significantly more training than drivers. Safety is drilled into them from the beginning and how to respond in emergency situations is continuously reinforced with recurrent simulator training and testing. There are also far fewer interactions between an airplane and physical elements of the world than with cars. Weather visibility is much less of a problem except on takeoff and landing. Finally, on commercial flights there are at least two pilots operating the aircraft at one time to balance the workload.
droidist2 7y ago
Exactly, and you have Elon Musk retweeting the guy who slept the whole ride home in his Tesla and giving him an attaboy.
P_I_Staker 7y ago
Oh God, quicktime events are leaking into the real world. Press X to not die.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

At least most car manufacturers, apart from one(guess who that is) are honest in the marketing about what the features is, a more advanced lane assist and don't sell it as self driving.

ScalaFan 7y ago

Certain items just have a danger level that requires an elevated sense of responsibility and awareness and I don't just mean firearms. Workshop tools like power saws or table saws need to be handled with respect and care and those that cannot provide it should just not use them. Those that have worked in some kinds of environments know what I mean. Some factories or manufacturing places have lots of extra safety regulations. Those that have been in the military also know of dynamic and changing circumstances of their operating environment with all the specific equipment they use. Even on a sailboat you need to be aware of the boom.

puzzledobserver 7y ago
As do cars. Which is why people need licenses to drive them. The question being asked is whether it is ethical for a company to market auto-pilot low-awareness chainsaws, designed to give the user only a half-second heads-up, and then disclaim responsibility when accidents happen. Maybe the solution is for licensing authorities to call these auto-manual chimeras unlicenseable.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  There are numerous devices for which the typical individual can function well in society without making direct use of them. Skillsaws, 737-MAX airliners, full Linux server distros, and home flourine refining labs among them. Automobiles, after a century-plus of integration and mutual reinforcement of the built infrastructure and virtually all aspects of life, commerce, government, employment, recreation, education, etc., are not amongst these. It is possible, usually within narrow environments and/or with considerable compromise, to survive without owning, using, or access to one. It is exceedingly difficult, and the net household ownership rates within the US and most other Western / Industrialised countries, reveals this. The standards are different. Incidentally: I agree with your premise regarding the unacceptability of manufacuters' apparent self-driving cutout behaviours. No, this is not remotely acceptable.
  - jfim 7y ago
    It's definitely possible to survive without owning a car in multiple cities in the US, such as New York City or San Francisco. Other Western cities such as Paris, London, Zurich also can support car free lifestyles. Looking at Asia, it's definitely possible not to own a car in Japan, and the ridership numbers for the Tokyo trains show this. Even rural areas have some kind of public transportation, either through trains or local buses.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Nearly 90% of the eligible population in the US have a drivers license. That's the bottom line. It's definitely possible to survive without owning a car in multiple cities in the US... That is a confirmation of the qualifier I gave: "It is possible, usually within narrow environments and/or with considerable compromise, to survive without owning, using, or access to one. It is exceedingly difficult, and the net household ownership rates within the US and most other Western / Industrialised countries, reveals this." Note that owning a car is not the same as access to a car, and that in the context of understanding driving principles, car-share, hire, or borrowing a vehicle are included in use. The Uber/Lift on-demand chauffeur service or traditional taxi/limo or van/paratransit services would not require driving skills by the customer, though I strongly suspect most such customers (possibly outside Manhattan) actually do, or did, drive. For the US, household car ownership rates range from 98% to 65%: https://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html https://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-... Even creating car-free zones, streets, or blocks within US cities is problematic: https://www.governing.com/topics/urban/gov-car-free-cities.html https://www.governing.com/topics/urban/gov-car-free-cities.h... The same article correlates car ownership with wealth, or conversely, lack with poverty. Apparently, if a household can own a car, it prefers to. Eyeballing national data, similar trends appear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_... Note peak ownership rates exceed 1 per person at national scale. The question of giving up driving is a significant one among senior care and living, with numerous articles easily found: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/10/08/162392507/when-should-seniors-hang-up-the-car-keys https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/10/08/1623925... https://www.seniorcaring.com/resources/talking-to-elderly-parents-about-driving https://www.seniorcaring.com/resources/talking-to-elderly-pa... https://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/senior-driving.php https://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/senior-driving.php From the NPR story: Bunni Dybnis, a social worker at the Los Angeles-based geriatric care service LivHome, says [family intervention] is typically how older drivers decide to give up the car keys: Their child or grandchild intervenes. "I could probably say it's 99.99 percent not the older adult saying, 'I want to stop driving; help me,' " says Dybnis, because giving up driving feels like giving up one's independence. I'd like to give the number of licensed drivers by state, as a percentage of population. That doesn't seem immediately available, though raw counts are: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/dl22.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hs00/dl22.htm Note that a licensed driver is one who is certified to drive, whether or not they own a car themselves or live in a household which does. And that rate tends to be high. It also underlines my initial claim: that interacting in modern industrialised nations, and certainly the US, without any ability to directly use a car, is at best difficult and imposes numerous compromises. OK, here's a 2017 US overview, in millions: - Population: 325 - Licensed drivers: 225 - Registered vehicles: 272 https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2017/dv1c.cfm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/statistics/2017/d... That's a 67% rate for registered drivers, for all ages. Population under age 18 is 22%, so 11% of otherwise age-qualified adults do not have a drivers license. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045218 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045218

kortilla 7y ago

That comparison falls flat because planes are filled with technologies where the pilot has to be ready to do X and it works fine (see autopilot).

gamblor956 7y ago
On planes pilots generally have time to take over if the autopilot fails. Falling from ten thousand feet takes a few minutes. On cars, if autopilot fails, the driver might have a fraction of a second to recognize the failure, take over from the AI, and initiate corrective action. Generally, there isn't sufficient time for any of these steps, let alone the first one.
bathtub365 7y ago
Pilots have significantly more training than drivers. Safety is drilled into them from the beginning and how to respond in emergency situations is continuously reinforced with recurrent simulator training and testing. There are also far fewer interactions between an airplane and physical elements of the world than with cars. Weather visibility is much less of a problem except on takeoff and landing. Finally, on commercial flights there are at least two pilots operating the aircraft at one time to balance the workload.

droidist2 7y ago

Exactly, and you have Elon Musk retweeting the guy who slept the whole ride home in his Tesla and giving him an attaboy.

P_I_Staker 7y ago

Oh God, quicktime events are leaking into the real world. Press X to not die.