5 ms·

I believe in this case the partisanship comes from less from the topic itself, but if you look into the proposed solutions, they all tend to shift money and pow

I believe in this case the partisanship comes from less from the topic itself, but if you look into the proposed solutions, they all tend to shift money and power in a single direction and don't have much to offer in regards of actually changing the climate.

lukifer 7y ago
I suspect that's a product of anything that becomes political: whether it's climate change or border security, the incentives are more towards theater than results, creating an attack surface for economic exploitation. At this point, I think the most efficient (and least corruptible) solution is a carbon tax + dividend [0], AKA a Pigovian tax [1]. It's not as though markets don't work; the problem is that externalities, ecological ones in particular, are not priced into the system, meaning we're just passing the bill to our descendants, at a phenomenally high interest rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Do you think corrupt governments, that also happen to be the largest polluters in the world will participate with a carbon tax honestly and in good faith?
  - lukifer 7y ago
    Yes, I suppose that is a risk; as with our (allegedly) progressive-taxation system, a carbon tax could invite loopholes and creative accounting, both in public and private sectors. It would take a significant groundswell of grassroots political will to apply a carbon tax fairly and universally; perhaps the dividend would make it a little more salient and less abstract, making it easier to calculate that company/department X is taking $Y out of each citizen's pocket, as opposed to more convoluted federal spending, regulatory capture, etc.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      > It would take a significant groundswell of grassroots political will to apply a carbon tax fairly and universally; This is where carbon tax falls apart. There is ZERO insentive for poor people in high polluting countries to make their lives worse for the benefit of the world. None. Therefore, carbon tax will only ever be paid by the "rich", but then we /know/ the rich dodge taxes. So the carbon tax falls on the middle class in the rich countries. Now the politics are more clear. Is it any surprise that the middle class don't want carbon taxes? Only the middle wealthy (doesn't affect their life much), the poor (they don't pay any taxes) and the rich (actors, politicians, etc...). This is why Trump is popular, a whole class of people is being dumped on, it's not a conspiracy from the oil companies, it's ideology based on fantasies that dump all the costs on one group of people. A new plan is needed, carbon tax will _never_ work.
      - lukifer 7y ago
        It's a legitimate concern; but the majority of carbon-producing activity is on the production side, and can be taxed from the producer, or even as a "carbon TCO" VAT on the consumption side. While tax dodges are a risk (particularly in the open, as big corps lobby for exceptions), this makes it much more universal than something like tax havens for capital gains by a small number of the uber-wealthy. I would consider the world-wide implications to be a bigger concern: if the tax is too high, some producers might feel incentivized to move operations to a country without a carbon tax. Though I generally think tariffs are a bad idea, a carbon tariff that essentially covers the difference (and goes to the same dividend pool) might not be the worst idea.

lukifer 7y ago

I suspect that's a product of anything that becomes political: whether it's climate change or border security, the incentives are more towards theater than results, creating an attack surface for economic exploitation. At this point, I think the most efficient (and least corruptible) solution is a carbon tax + dividend [0], AKA a Pigovian tax [1]. It's not as though markets don't work; the problem is that externalities, ecological ones in particular, are not priced into the system, meaning we're just passing the bill to our descendants, at a phenomenally high interest rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fee_and_dividend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Do you think corrupt governments, that also happen to be the largest polluters in the world will participate with a carbon tax honestly and in good faith?
- lukifer 7y ago
  Yes, I suppose that is a risk; as with our (allegedly) progressive-taxation system, a carbon tax could invite loopholes and creative accounting, both in public and private sectors. It would take a significant groundswell of grassroots political will to apply a carbon tax fairly and universally; perhaps the dividend would make it a little more salient and less abstract, making it easier to calculate that company/department X is taking $Y out of each citizen's pocket, as opposed to more convoluted federal spending, regulatory capture, etc.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    > It would take a significant groundswell of grassroots political will to apply a carbon tax fairly and universally; This is where carbon tax falls apart. There is ZERO insentive for poor people in high polluting countries to make their lives worse for the benefit of the world. None. Therefore, carbon tax will only ever be paid by the "rich", but then we /know/ the rich dodge taxes. So the carbon tax falls on the middle class in the rich countries. Now the politics are more clear. Is it any surprise that the middle class don't want carbon taxes? Only the middle wealthy (doesn't affect their life much), the poor (they don't pay any taxes) and the rich (actors, politicians, etc...). This is why Trump is popular, a whole class of people is being dumped on, it's not a conspiracy from the oil companies, it's ideology based on fantasies that dump all the costs on one group of people. A new plan is needed, carbon tax will _never_ work.
    - lukifer 7y ago
      It's a legitimate concern; but the majority of carbon-producing activity is on the production side, and can be taxed from the producer, or even as a "carbon TCO" VAT on the consumption side. While tax dodges are a risk (particularly in the open, as big corps lobby for exceptions), this makes it much more universal than something like tax havens for capital gains by a small number of the uber-wealthy. I would consider the world-wide implications to be a bigger concern: if the tax is too high, some producers might feel incentivized to move operations to a country without a carbon tax. Though I generally think tariffs are a bad idea, a carbon tariff that essentially covers the difference (and goes to the same dividend pool) might not be the worst idea.