6 ms·
Exactly. The suggestion that it is acceptable that a well engineered system would require heroic intervention with 4-10 seconds as the plane rapidly points nose
by et2o 7y ago
Exactly. The suggestion that it is acceptable that a well engineered system would require heroic intervention with 4-10 seconds as the plane rapidly points nose down is baffling.
- sho 7y agoYou said it better than I could.
- WalterBright 7y agoThey had a lot more that 4-10 seconds. The second LA crew corrected the trim 25 times over several minutes. The EA crew corrected it twice. The runaway trim procedure is also a "memory" procedure, meaning the pilots have it memorized in order to save time.
- et2o 7y agoIn the article they clearly state that adjustments need to be made within 10 seconds. Boeing suggests not doing this would be “catastrophic.”
- WalterBright 7y agoBoth the LA and EA did make the adjustments within 10 seconds. They then did not throw the cutoff switches.
- sho 7y agoI, for one, would jump at the chance on flying on commercial planes so problematic a reaction by the pilot of less than 10 seconds causes the whole passenger list's death Hey walterbright, who do you work for?
- Gigablah 7y agoConsidering that he claims to have worked for Boeing, this has made me... really concerned.
- WalterBright 7y agoAs far as I know, there's never been an incident with the 757 stab trim. I'm delighted when I find out my flight is on a 757. By the way, my opinions on this issue are my own. I don't speak for anyone else.
- Chris_Chambers 7y agoWhy is this single solitary shithead being allowed to shit up the entire comment section with his paid shilling for Boeing? He has replied to literally every fucking comment and subcomment here. He’s treating the comment section like it’s his own personal Q&A. I’m rate limited to posting like 2 comments per day on this site, why is he allowed to post so much? Shadowban this moron already. Useless mods.
- CydeWeys 7y agoThe 757 rightfully has a reputation as a high-performing, well-engineered plane, that pilots love to fly. The 737 MAX rightfully has a reputation as a death trap too unsafe to remain in the skies. I'm not sure how the one is relevant to the other.
- lultimouomo 7y agoWhen Walter worked for Boeing he worked on the 757 trim system, which has never had a problem yet, therefore Gigablah can probably relax about the fact that Walter worked for Boeing.
- Aloha 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bright https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bright
- phkahler 7y ago>> They had a lot more that 4-10 seconds. The second LA crew corrected the trim 25 times over several minutes. That doesn't sound like anything was corrected to me. It just kept pushing down, over and over.
- WalterBright 7y agoThey used the column trim switches to override the trim and restored the trim setting to normal, per procedure. The next part of the procedure is to throw the cutoff switches, which they did not do.
- nl 7y agoIf they do this 25 times, and still end up crashing is it possible that perhaps the procedure is a touch too complicated for a life and death situation?
- WalterBright 7y agoHow hard it is to turn off a switch right there on the center console so it is easily accessible? (It's not like the pilot has to turn around and search for it.)
- simion314 7y agoThis incident happened 2 times in a distance of a few months, if you would just use logic you can deduce that something is wrong , it is more probable that this 2 pilots forgot how to handle a standard procedure or that things are more complex then you are trying to imply, this could have been avoided if the pilots were informed about the new system and the warring lights would have been made default but doing this would have cost Boeing a lot of money
- nl 7y agoClearly it was hard enough that they forgot, repeatedly.
- 7y ago
- sho 7y agoListen to you. Yes the second LA crew managed to couteract the malfunctioning system 25 times before they finally succumbed. What's your argument? "Real pilots need to work against the aircraft's malfunctioning systems 26 times" ? Oh these poorly trained Lion Air idiots, only prepared to counteract the badly programmed airframe 25 times
- WalterBright 7y ago> What's your argument? I was replying to the argument that they had only 4-10 seconds. They had much more than that.
- hef19898 7y agoWhich still was not enough, as the crash showed. The simple fact that neither the FAA nor EASA have yet cleared the 737 MAX for flight is a pretty good indicator that it was, indeed, the planes fault. I think the "human error" argument phase should be over by now.
- jdietrich 7y agoThey incorrectly counteracted the malfunctioning system 25 times. If they had followed the correct procedure for handling runaway stab trim, they would have only needed to respond once. It's a three-step procedure that takes just a few seconds - press the override button on the yoke, turn off the master switches for the stab trim automation, set the stab trim manually. The Lion Air flight crew caused that crash because they lacked fundamental piloting skills. Like many low-cost carriers in middle-income countries, Lion Air have systematic problems with poor pilot training and supervision. The poor design of the MCAS system contributed to the crash, but any number of other system failures could have caused a similar accident if handled equally poorly. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-crashes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/18/magazine/boeing-737-max-c...
- sho 7y agoI'm not excusing Lion Air. I actually live in the region and everyone knows about their problems; I and many others refuse to fly with them. But that doesn't let Boeing off the hook at all. And I note you didn't mention Ethiopian air, who have a far better reputation. I think a lot of us here are software developers. As such, we all know that if a user does the wrong thing once, that's their problem. If they do the wrong thing 25 times in a row - that's our problem. I don't care how good the pilots are, or what country they're from. If a software system silently activates, with no immediately obvious way to turn it off, and ends up killing hundreds of people - I blame the developer. Fail-deadly systems have no place in commercial aviation. I don't want Boeing to go bankrupt, but I want them to hurt very badly from this. $25B of stock buybacks but they cut corners on this jet, to the cost of ~300 lives. This needs to cut right to their core and I'd be happy to see the entire C-suite and board fired.
- sanj 7y agoLet’s assume “several” minutes is 4 minutes. 240 seconds. Correcting 25 times in that window is <10s on average.