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There's also a more subtle version of this, where the seller leaves the listing the same, but once enough positive reviews have accumulated they move production

There's also a more subtle version of this, where the seller leaves the listing the same, but once enough positive reviews have accumulated they move production to a cheaper factory and use cheaper materials. So you might see older reviews for a pair of boots that say they're made from sturdy materials with good stitching, followed by later reviews saying that they didn't match the advertised sizing and pictures, or that they just fell apart after a couple weeks of use.

agumonkey 7y ago
This is an accelerated variant of typical business evolution. How many high grade brands are now cashing on their name subtly. Seduction etc
- a3n 7y ago
  Like a box that remains the same size over the years, but the contents are gradually reduced. I would love to have "that much" Mike and Ike's, but it's never in there.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    This is a fitting description of audio devices. What used to fill a box is now a 5mm chipset. The perverse effect is that the chip has 20x more options than the original device, so it looks better, but the quality and longevity may very well be degraded in disguise.
    - dharmab 7y ago
      I have to laugh at how large my receiver is when I can peek into the "cooling vents" and clearly see a fairly small solid state board and a ton of empty space.
      - tristor 7y ago
        Depending on your receiver, that may be because it’s trying to conform to chassis sizing requirements to be rack mountable (often via audio shelves, not rails). In the audio world many things use 19” comm racks, much like servers do.
- rhizome 7y ago
  How many high grade brands are now cashing on their name subtly "No way, that would never work!" he typed under the sultry cast of his Bell & Howell lantern. http://bellandhowell.com/lanterns http://bellandhowell.com/lanterns
  - schoen 7y ago
    Well, your story has persuaded me to buy this lantern.
MaxBarraclough 7y ago
Anyone know if this version is officially permitted by Amazon's rules? Or for that matter the 'original' version above?
agentdrtran 7y ago
I've actually had this happen to stuff I bought, it's extremely shady and should be illegal.
- ghostly_s 7y ago
  It is illegal, just not enforced on Amazon.
cm2187 7y ago
And most reviews aren’t seller specific. What I see is reviews for a product, but some of the sellers for that product will sell a counterfeit version (Intel NIC in my case). The top (default) seller when the reviews were written may be replaced by a bad actor a couple of years later.
- tracker1 7y ago
  Because amazon doesn't add seller stickers/labels it's nearly impossible for them to even determine the seller if it's "Fulfilled by Amazon" ... I tend to stick to the "Sold by Amazon" or "Sold and shipped by MFG" because at least with Amazon, returns become easy and/or I trust orders from MFG slightly more than otherwise.
  - dannyw 7y ago
    Even when something by is sold by amazon, you could get something shipped to them by a third party seller. They keep all products with the same ID in one area, and pick whatever is on top. If I started using FBA and supplying an item, it’ll go in the same box and chances are more likely an “sold by amazon.com” will sell my product, and I’ll sell an “amazon.com” product. See the problem?
    - usrusr 7y ago
      The argument wasn't that buying "sold by Amazon" would have a higher success rate, it was that returning would be more successfull than with some random pop-up account. This won't help against unnoticeable but still bad fakes of course.
    - rahimnathwani 7y ago
      "They keep all products with the same ID in one area" No they don't. Google 'random stow' and you'll find articles about how Amazon stores incoming items. They are stowed somewhat randomly, but scanned as they are stowed. So the system knows where to find each unit again, and can use that to optimize picking paths.
abakker 7y ago
The term for this is "Quality Fade" and is by no means unique to amazon. This is a very common thing in all low-cost manufacturing. you start with higher quality and lower margin, and gradually degrade quality to improve margin. You consistently flirt with the lowest quality possible.
- sek 7y ago
  I mean for software we talk about reproducability and versions down to the bit. But if a consumer products replaces one piece of metal with plastic it's apparently the same product? Products should have versions that look like this. 2.1 * Replaces piece X with plastic. * Reduced frame width to save material costs. This could also be positive and make it more transparent. 2.2 * Strength part X that breaks very often. * Change edges to reduce chance of injury. I mean this opens a huge box of problems, I know apple didn't want to admit their keyboard was problematic in fear of lawsuits. This is how it should be.
  - abakker 7y ago
    My guess is that there are serial number / model number / revision numbers that do change when this is done. It is just not mandatory that these changes be published. I agree that it would be nice to know when metal gears had been replaced with plastic.
- stingraycharles 7y ago
  The frustrating thing is that sometimes it is extremely difficult to find hardware that doesn’t suffer from this quality fade. Buying decent router hardware comes to mind; if I want a non-professional router that doesn’t use the cheapest hardware possible, it’s very difficult to assess this apart from spending hours hunting down reviews etc.
trashface 7y ago
Also known as "decontenting" and widely practiced in many industries.
- jdkee 7y ago
  This. See https://www.autonews.com/article/19960122/ANA/601220731/decontenting-when-there-s-no-costs-left-to-cut-japan-wrestles-with-what-to-take-out-of-cars-trucks https://www.autonews.com/article/19960122/ANA/601220731/deco...
cwp 7y ago
I wonder how much of this is because Amazon started out selling books and CDs. Those things don't really have quality issues, and are pretty much fungible. Now, decades into their "everything store" strategy, they're still trying to treat everything like books.
- sligor 7y ago
  Yes, but... there are also many fake books sold on Amazon, and with bad printing quality
- bluescrn 7y ago
  Even books need shipping with some amount of care to arrive undamaged. Amazon isn't even good at that these days, piling items fairly loosely into oversized boxes.
- bsdubernerd 7y ago
  I disagree. I have about 10 books on my shelf published by various editors but which have been printed by amazon printing services. I had to return several because of poor print quality. Some had splotches, some missing or blank pages, some had horrid patterning all over the book. I own a ton of books, and my decision process is generally: - go to library - read/like a book - buy it for late reference For this reason I rarely checked books as I ordered them (I assumed they were fine). After realizing a couple of books I had were unreadable (and way past the "warranty"), I now flip through the entire book just to check for glaring print problems. Thank you amazon, I guess?
- remotecool 7y ago
  I have had a book business for the last 8 years and in the last 3, there has been a massive increase in counterfeit books. The biggest issue is that there isn't any way to really know if it's a counterfeit unless you send them to the publisher. Many are so good, you can't really tell the difference unless you really know what to look for. I tried this once and in response they sent me a cease and desist letter claiming I was knowingly selling counterfeits. They went away after I got my attorney involved, but it isn't really helping the publishers because I still don't really know how to spot counterfeits, besides the obvious signs. The publishers really want to get rid of the secondary markets because they don't make any money on it...so they are using attorneys to squash it instead.
dredmorbius 7y ago
I've experienced this (generally over decades, occasionally a few years) with brick-and-mortar and/or mail-order retailers (I virtually never shop Amazon). So yes, the phenomenon happens. And it's insidious. I've flat stopped patronizing those retailers. Shopping is not an enjoyable experience. I'm wiling to pay modest premiums for quality (bargain-hunting is sifting through tons of junk for exceptionally rare gems), but I won't pay premium for junk. The long-term cost has to be considerable, I would think.

agumonkey 7y ago

This is an accelerated variant of typical business evolution. How many high grade brands are now cashing on their name subtly. Seduction etc

a3n 7y ago
Like a box that remains the same size over the years, but the contents are gradually reduced. I would love to have "that much" Mike and Ike's, but it's never in there.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  This is a fitting description of audio devices. What used to fill a box is now a 5mm chipset. The perverse effect is that the chip has 20x more options than the original device, so it looks better, but the quality and longevity may very well be degraded in disguise.
  - dharmab 7y ago
    I have to laugh at how large my receiver is when I can peek into the "cooling vents" and clearly see a fairly small solid state board and a ton of empty space.
    - tristor 7y ago
      Depending on your receiver, that may be because it’s trying to conform to chassis sizing requirements to be rack mountable (often via audio shelves, not rails). In the audio world many things use 19” comm racks, much like servers do.
rhizome 7y ago
How many high grade brands are now cashing on their name subtly "No way, that would never work!" he typed under the sultry cast of his Bell & Howell lantern. http://bellandhowell.com/lanterns http://bellandhowell.com/lanterns
- schoen 7y ago
  Well, your story has persuaded me to buy this lantern.

MaxBarraclough 7y ago

Anyone know if this version is officially permitted by Amazon's rules? Or for that matter the 'original' version above?

agentdrtran 7y ago

I've actually had this happen to stuff I bought, it's extremely shady and should be illegal.

ghostly_s 7y ago
It is illegal, just not enforced on Amazon.

cm2187 7y ago

And most reviews aren’t seller specific. What I see is reviews for a product, but some of the sellers for that product will sell a counterfeit version (Intel NIC in my case). The top (default) seller when the reviews were written may be replaced by a bad actor a couple of years later.

tracker1 7y ago
Because amazon doesn't add seller stickers/labels it's nearly impossible for them to even determine the seller if it's "Fulfilled by Amazon" ... I tend to stick to the "Sold by Amazon" or "Sold and shipped by MFG" because at least with Amazon, returns become easy and/or I trust orders from MFG slightly more than otherwise.
- dannyw 7y ago
  Even when something by is sold by amazon, you could get something shipped to them by a third party seller. They keep all products with the same ID in one area, and pick whatever is on top. If I started using FBA and supplying an item, it’ll go in the same box and chances are more likely an “sold by amazon.com” will sell my product, and I’ll sell an “amazon.com” product. See the problem?
  - usrusr 7y ago
    The argument wasn't that buying "sold by Amazon" would have a higher success rate, it was that returning would be more successfull than with some random pop-up account. This won't help against unnoticeable but still bad fakes of course.
  - rahimnathwani 7y ago
    "They keep all products with the same ID in one area" No they don't. Google 'random stow' and you'll find articles about how Amazon stores incoming items. They are stowed somewhat randomly, but scanned as they are stowed. So the system knows where to find each unit again, and can use that to optimize picking paths.

abakker 7y ago

The term for this is "Quality Fade" and is by no means unique to amazon. This is a very common thing in all low-cost manufacturing. you start with higher quality and lower margin, and gradually degrade quality to improve margin. You consistently flirt with the lowest quality possible.

sek 7y ago
I mean for software we talk about reproducability and versions down to the bit. But if a consumer products replaces one piece of metal with plastic it's apparently the same product? Products should have versions that look like this. 2.1 * Replaces piece X with plastic. * Reduced frame width to save material costs. This could also be positive and make it more transparent. 2.2 * Strength part X that breaks very often. * Change edges to reduce chance of injury. I mean this opens a huge box of problems, I know apple didn't want to admit their keyboard was problematic in fear of lawsuits. This is how it should be.
- abakker 7y ago
  My guess is that there are serial number / model number / revision numbers that do change when this is done. It is just not mandatory that these changes be published. I agree that it would be nice to know when metal gears had been replaced with plastic.
stingraycharles 7y ago
The frustrating thing is that sometimes it is extremely difficult to find hardware that doesn’t suffer from this quality fade. Buying decent router hardware comes to mind; if I want a non-professional router that doesn’t use the cheapest hardware possible, it’s very difficult to assess this apart from spending hours hunting down reviews etc.

trashface 7y ago

Also known as "decontenting" and widely practiced in many industries.

jdkee 7y ago
This. See https://www.autonews.com/article/19960122/ANA/601220731/decontenting-when-there-s-no-costs-left-to-cut-japan-wrestles-with-what-to-take-out-of-cars-trucks https://www.autonews.com/article/19960122/ANA/601220731/deco...

cwp 7y ago

I wonder how much of this is because Amazon started out selling books and CDs. Those things don't really have quality issues, and are pretty much fungible. Now, decades into their "everything store" strategy, they're still trying to treat everything like books.

sligor 7y ago
Yes, but... there are also many fake books sold on Amazon, and with bad printing quality
bluescrn 7y ago
Even books need shipping with some amount of care to arrive undamaged. Amazon isn't even good at that these days, piling items fairly loosely into oversized boxes.
bsdubernerd 7y ago
I disagree. I have about 10 books on my shelf published by various editors but which have been printed by amazon printing services. I had to return several because of poor print quality. Some had splotches, some missing or blank pages, some had horrid patterning all over the book. I own a ton of books, and my decision process is generally: - go to library - read/like a book - buy it for late reference For this reason I rarely checked books as I ordered them (I assumed they were fine). After realizing a couple of books I had were unreadable (and way past the "warranty"), I now flip through the entire book just to check for glaring print problems. Thank you amazon, I guess?
remotecool 7y ago
I have had a book business for the last 8 years and in the last 3, there has been a massive increase in counterfeit books. The biggest issue is that there isn't any way to really know if it's a counterfeit unless you send them to the publisher. Many are so good, you can't really tell the difference unless you really know what to look for. I tried this once and in response they sent me a cease and desist letter claiming I was knowingly selling counterfeits. They went away after I got my attorney involved, but it isn't really helping the publishers because I still don't really know how to spot counterfeits, besides the obvious signs. The publishers really want to get rid of the secondary markets because they don't make any money on it...so they are using attorneys to squash it instead.

dredmorbius 7y ago

I've experienced this (generally over decades, occasionally a few years) with brick-and-mortar and/or mail-order retailers (I virtually never shop Amazon). So yes, the phenomenon happens. And it's insidious. I've flat stopped patronizing those retailers. Shopping is not an enjoyable experience. I'm wiling to pay modest premiums for quality (bargain-hunting is sifting through tons of junk for exceptionally rare gems), but I won't pay premium for junk. The long-term cost has to be considerable, I would think.