4 ms·

100% agreed. sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander. Hence, I find the argument that "there There is no shortage if you pay enough" so entitled and arroga

100% agreed. sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander. Hence, I find the argument that "there There is no shortage if you pay enough" so entitled and arrogant. The high-tech industry is already paying salaries, that most any other professions would kill for. So what is that "magic number" when your blue-collar guy will hang up his hard-hat and switch to coding? I am not aware of any untapped geniuses now toiling as coal miners, truck drivers or construction workers waiting for the salaries to hit a magic number for them to unleash their talents.

majormajor 7y ago
> I am not aware of any untapped geniuses now toiling as coal miners, truck drivers or construction workers waiting for the salaries to hit a magic number for them to unleash their talents. That's not who would be most affected by a long term trend of high salaries. It's the kids who would go to biz school or wall street or law school (or med school, but that's less of a positive, hah) instead because that's where the money has been in the past.
- phenkdo 7y ago
  You are arguing against yourself there. Please define "high salaries". Wall st, Doctors, IT Professionals are already the highest paid professionals, and paid anywhere between 3x to many x more than your typical blue-collar salary. Are you saying this multiple needs be even more for the "kids" to work hard and become scientists, doctors or programmers? I think we all know the answer to that.
spamizbad 7y ago
> I find the argument that "there There is no shortage if you pay enough" so entitled and arrogant. The high-tech industry is already paying salaries, that most any other professions would kill for. So what is that "magic number" when your blue-collar guy will hang up his hard-hat and switch to coding? You do realize there's other high paying industries besides software engineering, right? It's not like your choices are learning to code or working at Arby's. It's really not entitlement, it's simply people who believe that the labor pool has market-like characteristics. During recessions and downturns this certainly is used as a reason to do hiring freezes, cut pay, and lay people off. So if the labor pool acts like a market during a surplus, how could it be arrogant to assume it loosely follows those rules during a shortage; where wages should be pushed upward? My own view is that there is no true technology labor shortage, just that technology companies are still in the process of figuring out how to maximize the productivity of their technology teams outside of "Make them work longer hours" Better decision making, better working environments for technology contributors, and more focus on nurturing technology manager talent could significantly increase productivity IMO.
- non-entity 7y ago
  > You do realize there's other high paying industries besides software engineering, right? Not trying to be snarky, as I'm generally ignorant about most career paths, but wharvelse is there paying well. Off the top of my head I cam think of finance, doctors, and, in some cases law, butnis there anything outside of that. I know that in many industries you can end up doing pretty well, but only once you've reached the very top. Whereas the aforementioned professions can pay well from that start .
  - throwawayjava 7y ago
    The national average SWE salary is barely 100K. Lots of positions in medicine, finance, and engineering hit that average.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      SWE isn't a BLS tracked occupation, it's a title which loosely corresponds to a higher paid segment within the Software Developer occupation; the median salary for Software Developers is $105,590, with a Bachelor's degree identified as BLS as the entry-level education. There is no healthcare profession with the same or higher median salary that doesn't have at least as Master's degree as the entry-level education, and all healthcare occupations except Physician Assistants and Nurse Anesthetists/Midwives/Practitioners with the same or higher median salary actually have a doctoral or professional degree as the entry-level education. There are no occupations in Business & Finance with equivalent or higher median pay. (Personal Financial Advisors, at $88,890, are the highest in that area.) There are some engineering occupation with higher median pay, but only Aerospace, Computer Hardware, and Petroleum Engineers (Chemical gets close, at $104,910.) So, no, there aren't lots of occupations in those three areas paid, on average, better than SWEs (or Software Developers). There are a bunch of management occupations with higher pay, though, ironically enough, “Top Executives” is just a bit below Software Developers. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/mobile/home.htm
TheCoelacanth 7y ago
That's just how a market economy works. There are limited quantities of every resource. If you don't pay the market rate for the resource, you don't get it. Pay what you need to or go out of business. Either way, stop your whining.
- phenkdo 7y ago
  Interesting, in other words : -there is no housing shortage in SF/NYC/any big city, just a shortage at what you are willing to pay -there's no shortage of insulin or medications or health-care just a shortage at the price you are willing to pay. -no affordable education crisis.... (on and on...) You see if you don't pay the market rate for the resource, Sh_t out of luck. sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander
  - TheCoelacanth 7y ago
    Running a successful business is not necessary to live. Housing and healthcare are. They should not be treated the same.
    - phenkdo 7y ago
      > Running a successful business is not necessary to live. Housing and > healthcare are. They should not be treated the same. Maybe not for you, but as a small business owner it's my livelihood.
aidenn0 7y ago
The FAANG companies employ so many people that they anchor salaries. If you have a job offer that is more attractive than a typical FAANG offer (and paying more is one way of doing so), then you have access to a pool of labor that is practically unlimited for even a medium-sized business. 20 engineers a piece from each FAANG company is 100 engineers and they might not even notice such a small drop in employment.
Noumenon72 7y ago
It's sort of basic economics that there are always people at the margin of any supply and demand curve. I was a line operator in a plastic factory for 15 years, making up to $15/hour. I had a 1480 SAT, but I saved 50% of my income so I was perfectly comfortable. I didn't believe all the extra effort it takes to do a professional job was worth it when I could just wear a uniform and bike to work. Doubling my salary makes it worth it, even in a higher-cost-of-living area. Some of those industrial workers have built up amazing work habits that could really ramp up their programming skills if applied that way, as well.

majormajor 7y ago

> I am not aware of any untapped geniuses now toiling as coal miners, truck drivers or construction workers waiting for the salaries to hit a magic number for them to unleash their talents. That's not who would be most affected by a long term trend of high salaries. It's the kids who would go to biz school or wall street or law school (or med school, but that's less of a positive, hah) instead because that's where the money has been in the past.

phenkdo 7y ago
You are arguing against yourself there. Please define "high salaries". Wall st, Doctors, IT Professionals are already the highest paid professionals, and paid anywhere between 3x to many x more than your typical blue-collar salary. Are you saying this multiple needs be even more for the "kids" to work hard and become scientists, doctors or programmers? I think we all know the answer to that.

spamizbad 7y ago

> I find the argument that "there There is no shortage if you pay enough" so entitled and arrogant. The high-tech industry is already paying salaries, that most any other professions would kill for. So what is that "magic number" when your blue-collar guy will hang up his hard-hat and switch to coding? You do realize there's other high paying industries besides software engineering, right? It's not like your choices are learning to code or working at Arby's. It's really not entitlement, it's simply people who believe that the labor pool has market-like characteristics. During recessions and downturns this certainly is used as a reason to do hiring freezes, cut pay, and lay people off. So if the labor pool acts like a market during a surplus, how could it be arrogant to assume it loosely follows those rules during a shortage; where wages should be pushed upward? My own view is that there is no true technology labor shortage, just that technology companies are still in the process of figuring out how to maximize the productivity of their technology teams outside of "Make them work longer hours" Better decision making, better working environments for technology contributors, and more focus on nurturing technology manager talent could significantly increase productivity IMO.

non-entity 7y ago
> You do realize there's other high paying industries besides software engineering, right? Not trying to be snarky, as I'm generally ignorant about most career paths, but wharvelse is there paying well. Off the top of my head I cam think of finance, doctors, and, in some cases law, butnis there anything outside of that. I know that in many industries you can end up doing pretty well, but only once you've reached the very top. Whereas the aforementioned professions can pay well from that start .
- throwawayjava 7y ago
  The national average SWE salary is barely 100K. Lots of positions in medicine, finance, and engineering hit that average.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    SWE isn't a BLS tracked occupation, it's a title which loosely corresponds to a higher paid segment within the Software Developer occupation; the median salary for Software Developers is $105,590, with a Bachelor's degree identified as BLS as the entry-level education. There is no healthcare profession with the same or higher median salary that doesn't have at least as Master's degree as the entry-level education, and all healthcare occupations except Physician Assistants and Nurse Anesthetists/Midwives/Practitioners with the same or higher median salary actually have a doctoral or professional degree as the entry-level education. There are no occupations in Business & Finance with equivalent or higher median pay. (Personal Financial Advisors, at $88,890, are the highest in that area.) There are some engineering occupation with higher median pay, but only Aerospace, Computer Hardware, and Petroleum Engineers (Chemical gets close, at $104,910.) So, no, there aren't lots of occupations in those three areas paid, on average, better than SWEs (or Software Developers). There are a bunch of management occupations with higher pay, though, ironically enough, “Top Executives” is just a bit below Software Developers. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/mobile/... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/mobile/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/management/mobile/home.htm

TheCoelacanth 7y ago

That's just how a market economy works. There are limited quantities of every resource. If you don't pay the market rate for the resource, you don't get it. Pay what you need to or go out of business. Either way, stop your whining.

phenkdo 7y ago
Interesting, in other words : -there is no housing shortage in SF/NYC/any big city, just a shortage at what you are willing to pay -there's no shortage of insulin or medications or health-care just a shortage at the price you are willing to pay. -no affordable education crisis.... (on and on...) You see if you don't pay the market rate for the resource, Sh_t out of luck. sauce for the goose == sauce for the gander
- TheCoelacanth 7y ago
  Running a successful business is not necessary to live. Housing and healthcare are. They should not be treated the same.
  - phenkdo 7y ago
    > Running a successful business is not necessary to live. Housing and > healthcare are. They should not be treated the same. Maybe not for you, but as a small business owner it's my livelihood.

aidenn0 7y ago

The FAANG companies employ so many people that they anchor salaries. If you have a job offer that is more attractive than a typical FAANG offer (and paying more is one way of doing so), then you have access to a pool of labor that is practically unlimited for even a medium-sized business. 20 engineers a piece from each FAANG company is 100 engineers and they might not even notice such a small drop in employment.

Noumenon72 7y ago

It's sort of basic economics that there are always people at the margin of any supply and demand curve. I was a line operator in a plastic factory for 15 years, making up to $15/hour. I had a 1480 SAT, but I saved 50% of my income so I was perfectly comfortable. I didn't believe all the extra effort it takes to do a professional job was worth it when I could just wear a uniform and bike to work. Doubling my salary makes it worth it, even in a higher-cost-of-living area. Some of those industrial workers have built up amazing work habits that could really ramp up their programming skills if applied that way, as well.