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What qualifies as "exceptional circumstances"? Cash bail claims to be the middle ground between "we trust you enough to show up in your own" and "we distrust y

What qualifies as "exceptional circumstances"? Cash bail claims to be the middle ground between "we trust you enough to show up in your own" and "we distrust you enough to incarcerate you until this is resolved."

pjc50 7y ago
https://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/bail/ https://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/bail/ a bit of an explainer. I'm not too sure what the circumstances are, but there is no professional bail loan industry and the only famous case I can think of is .. Julian Assange, who jumped bail. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange-supporters-ordered-forfeit-bail https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange...
snagglegaggle 7y ago
I think you should look at it in reverse. Why have cash bail? To save money and time. But when the state becomes technologically advanced enough that catching the accused is inevitable cash bail stops being an incentive that benefits the government unless it can be used to actively generate revenue. By disallowing cash bail you are forced to hold everyone that is accused and if you were enforcing bad laws for revenue generation this becomes expensive, not profitable. The bail system is very profit driven, even on the government side. The existence of bondsmen has tended to increase the bail that is set for nonviolent, almost civil offenses. What becomes exceptional then is basically just capital crimes.
- zepto 7y ago
  Catching the accused is nowhere near inevitable so why is this relevant?
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    For many crimes they just don't bother looking for you because you will eventually need to resolve the issue. This makes it seem like it is easier to hide than it is, but you're not really hiding. I guess what I am trying to capture is the difference in active vs. passive policing. Have you ever tried to evade the law? You can't get a driver's license or nondriver's identification card, as the warrant prevents you from renewing or they stall you for arrest; you can't apply for social benefits, as you need ID; you can't take most jobs, as they are linked to your identity; and you can't get a passport and often can't leave the country. Going out can be hazardous as even if you don't need to provide ID you might get arrested for not doing so anyway, and social functions may request an ID either for serving alcohol or for admission. If you do get out of the country, you'd have similar or worse problems in Canada, and Mexico is far less amenable to undocumented transients than it used to be. Going further south might be an option but you're now talking about relocating to a different culture at considerable expense. Unless you're a well-off murderer the cost-benefit is not in favor of this.
    - JohnBooty 7y ago
      You've provided a number of wonderful explanations on this thread. As an American who's had zero personal involvement with the justice system, I'd never really stopped to consider the practice of cash bail. Thank you!
    - sturgill 7y ago
      I once had a warrant issued for my arrest because I forgot to take care of a “fix-it” ticket. I got the letter in the mail and even the stress of driving a car was incredible. All it takes is going just a touch too fast and your life would change in an instant. Any whirling lights created intense anxiety. I only lasted about a week after I got the letter before I went to the station on my own time. Technically they were supposed to book me and then process the “fix it” paperwork (burned out headlight!) but in their words “the booking room is full and you’d just be released any way; but maybe next time take care of this faster?” I did send my mom a copy of the letter informing me the warrant for my arrest had been rescinded...
      - skinnymuch 7y ago
        Why would your life change so much/in an instant? Does your state mark your arrest for such a minor warrant in some permanent record or such, without being able to do much about it? You’re not being charged for a felony. DUIs are more serious as one example. I don’t know the extent to how you need to inform people like employers about it, but it hasn’t seemed to affect life in the medium or long term for people I know irl. The biggest issue is losing driving privileges for a decent amount of time. Which isn’t likely in your situation. Or the ones I’ve been in.
        sturgill 7y ago
        I simply didn’t want my car impounded while I was cuffed and put in the back of a police car. These were my undergrad years and I was in a different state studying (loosely defined). And there’s always a permanent record (short of expungement). “The background check for the job shows you were arrested; can you please explain?...” Honestly I don’t know how long stuff like that sticks around. And I’m also glad I never had to find out. It can be a funny story with a framed letter saying there’s no longer a warrant for my arrest. No Rick Perry mugshot pic circulating Facebook...
avianlyric 7y ago
In the UK you always get bail by default, without condition. The exceptions to this are pretty much just murder, manslaughter, sexual assault, and some drug offences. In short not being bailed is an exception. This is done on the basis you haven’t actually been found guilty of crime yet, thus the state can’t limit your liberties as you’re innocent until proven otherwise. You read more here: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail
- goodluckchuck 7y ago
  That doesn't answer the question. You also get bail by default in the US, "without condition." However, the definition of bail is literally collateral or security that you provide to ensure your return. So to say that you get bail in the UK is just to say that the UK does the same thing. There's this implication that poor people can't make bail because they're poor, which is utterly false and made in bad faith by most who imply it. If a person is not released on their on recognizance in the US (i.e. without bail), then bail is set by the court based on 1) extent to which the person is a flight risk / risk to public safety, and 2) the person's ability to pay. Let me say that again, the amount of a cash bail is based on the defendant's ability to pay. If a person is only a mild flight risk, then the judge will choose an amount that is within the defendant's financial means, but also sufficient to encourage them to show up. If a defendant proves they they are poor, then this amount is be very small. However, if they prove they are poor and the judge still sets a bail that they cannot reach without borrowing from friends and family or a bondsmen, then that also says something. It means the judge determined they're too much of a risk to trust on their own. The point of cash bail is often to make the defendant accountable to friends, family, bail-bondsmen... which encourages them to show up. A confounding factor is that wealthy people are rarely a serious flight risk. An illegal alien charged with DUI may have friends who he can hide with, skills he can use to work anywhere, and the knowhow to "stay off the radar." An accountant who charged with DUI, however, can be tracked by their phone and bank accounts, likely has far more to lose by fleeing (a paid-off house, a family that lives in town with them, a job that reports their employment to government, etc.). These are all factors that go into the amount cash bail. So, it might look like "he's getting out because he can pay despite being charged with the same crime" when the real reason is that "the judge picked an amount he can pay because he's not a serious flight risk."
stjohnswarts 7y ago
It regressively punishes poor people more than rich people though, thus it is inequitable. It serves no purpose for low risk, non-violent offenses as well. It's just a bad idea in most cases. It's good to drop the cash part and go strictly based on flight risk.

pjc50 7y ago

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/bail/ https://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/bail/ a bit of an explainer. I'm not too sure what the circumstances are, but there is no professional bail loan industry and the only famous case I can think of is .. Julian Assange, who jumped bail. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange-supporters-ordered-forfeit-bail https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/08/julian-assange...

snagglegaggle 7y ago

I think you should look at it in reverse. Why have cash bail? To save money and time. But when the state becomes technologically advanced enough that catching the accused is inevitable cash bail stops being an incentive that benefits the government unless it can be used to actively generate revenue. By disallowing cash bail you are forced to hold everyone that is accused and if you were enforcing bad laws for revenue generation this becomes expensive, not profitable. The bail system is very profit driven, even on the government side. The existence of bondsmen has tended to increase the bail that is set for nonviolent, almost civil offenses. What becomes exceptional then is basically just capital crimes.

zepto 7y ago
Catching the accused is nowhere near inevitable so why is this relevant?
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  For many crimes they just don't bother looking for you because you will eventually need to resolve the issue. This makes it seem like it is easier to hide than it is, but you're not really hiding. I guess what I am trying to capture is the difference in active vs. passive policing. Have you ever tried to evade the law? You can't get a driver's license or nondriver's identification card, as the warrant prevents you from renewing or they stall you for arrest; you can't apply for social benefits, as you need ID; you can't take most jobs, as they are linked to your identity; and you can't get a passport and often can't leave the country. Going out can be hazardous as even if you don't need to provide ID you might get arrested for not doing so anyway, and social functions may request an ID either for serving alcohol or for admission. If you do get out of the country, you'd have similar or worse problems in Canada, and Mexico is far less amenable to undocumented transients than it used to be. Going further south might be an option but you're now talking about relocating to a different culture at considerable expense. Unless you're a well-off murderer the cost-benefit is not in favor of this.
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    You've provided a number of wonderful explanations on this thread. As an American who's had zero personal involvement with the justice system, I'd never really stopped to consider the practice of cash bail. Thank you!
  - sturgill 7y ago
    I once had a warrant issued for my arrest because I forgot to take care of a “fix-it” ticket. I got the letter in the mail and even the stress of driving a car was incredible. All it takes is going just a touch too fast and your life would change in an instant. Any whirling lights created intense anxiety. I only lasted about a week after I got the letter before I went to the station on my own time. Technically they were supposed to book me and then process the “fix it” paperwork (burned out headlight!) but in their words “the booking room is full and you’d just be released any way; but maybe next time take care of this faster?” I did send my mom a copy of the letter informing me the warrant for my arrest had been rescinded...
    - skinnymuch 7y ago
      Why would your life change so much/in an instant? Does your state mark your arrest for such a minor warrant in some permanent record or such, without being able to do much about it? You’re not being charged for a felony. DUIs are more serious as one example. I don’t know the extent to how you need to inform people like employers about it, but it hasn’t seemed to affect life in the medium or long term for people I know irl. The biggest issue is losing driving privileges for a decent amount of time. Which isn’t likely in your situation. Or the ones I’ve been in.
      - sturgill 7y ago
        I simply didn’t want my car impounded while I was cuffed and put in the back of a police car. These were my undergrad years and I was in a different state studying (loosely defined). And there’s always a permanent record (short of expungement). “The background check for the job shows you were arrested; can you please explain?...” Honestly I don’t know how long stuff like that sticks around. And I’m also glad I never had to find out. It can be a funny story with a framed letter saying there’s no longer a warrant for my arrest. No Rick Perry mugshot pic circulating Facebook...

avianlyric 7y ago

In the UK you always get bail by default, without condition. The exceptions to this are pretty much just murder, manslaughter, sexual assault, and some drug offences. In short not being bailed is an exception. This is done on the basis you haven’t actually been found guilty of crime yet, thus the state can’t limit your liberties as you’re innocent until proven otherwise. You read more here: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail

goodluckchuck 7y ago
That doesn't answer the question. You also get bail by default in the US, "without condition." However, the definition of bail is literally collateral or security that you provide to ensure your return. So to say that you get bail in the UK is just to say that the UK does the same thing. There's this implication that poor people can't make bail because they're poor, which is utterly false and made in bad faith by most who imply it. If a person is not released on their on recognizance in the US (i.e. without bail), then bail is set by the court based on 1) extent to which the person is a flight risk / risk to public safety, and 2) the person's ability to pay. Let me say that again, the amount of a cash bail is based on the defendant's ability to pay. If a person is only a mild flight risk, then the judge will choose an amount that is within the defendant's financial means, but also sufficient to encourage them to show up. If a defendant proves they they are poor, then this amount is be very small. However, if they prove they are poor and the judge still sets a bail that they cannot reach without borrowing from friends and family or a bondsmen, then that also says something. It means the judge determined they're too much of a risk to trust on their own. The point of cash bail is often to make the defendant accountable to friends, family, bail-bondsmen... which encourages them to show up. A confounding factor is that wealthy people are rarely a serious flight risk. An illegal alien charged with DUI may have friends who he can hide with, skills he can use to work anywhere, and the knowhow to "stay off the radar." An accountant who charged with DUI, however, can be tracked by their phone and bank accounts, likely has far more to lose by fleeing (a paid-off house, a family that lives in town with them, a job that reports their employment to government, etc.). These are all factors that go into the amount cash bail. So, it might look like "he's getting out because he can pay despite being charged with the same crime" when the real reason is that "the judge picked an amount he can pay because he's not a serious flight risk."

stjohnswarts 7y ago

It regressively punishes poor people more than rich people though, thus it is inequitable. It serves no purpose for low risk, non-violent offenses as well. It's just a bad idea in most cases. It's good to drop the cash part and go strictly based on flight risk.