5 ms·

I'm concerned about the knock-down approach by the FBI. Say I live in a state which allows one to kill home intruders on sight, could I not legally set up an a

by Jach 16y ago

I'm concerned about the knock-down approach by the FBI. Say I live in a state which allows one to kill home intruders on sight, could I not legally set up an alarm system that sprays some bullets in the direction of the door if it's opened without being disabled? By knocking I can disable it and let them in instead of having a few dead FBI agents on my doorstep.

dpatru 16y ago
One of the first cases in a law school tort class is Katko v Briney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney). Briney was a farmer fed up with a break-ins of an abandoned house that he owned. He set up a shotgun to shoot at an intruder's knees if and when the intruder forced the door. Katko, a trespasser, broke in and was shot and injured, sued and won. The quote I remember is (I had to look it up): ‘The value of human life and limb, not only to the individual concerned but also to society, so outweights the interest of a possessor of land in excluding from it those whom he is not willing to admit thereto that a possessor of land has . . . no privilege to use force intended or likely to cause death or serious harm against another whom the possessor sees about to enter his premises or meddle with his chattel, unless the intrusion threatens death or serious bodily harm to the occupiers or users of the premises.
InclinedPlane 16y ago
No, you cannot legally create lethal booby traps, in any state in the US.
- Jach 16y ago
  Good to know. How about non-lethal? (Say, something that might break a few bones but you'll recover.)
  - rdouble 16y ago
    Anything that can maim is legally "lethal force." There are legally defensible reasons for breaking into someone else's property. For example, if someone thinks there is someone incapacitated inside, or if someone is running from danger and needs to hide. Finally, it's not really a booby trap if you're inside deciding which visitors get blasted.
  - tghw 16y ago
    No. I can't find it right now, but there was a burglar who successfully sued a guy who set up some sort of electrical booby-trap. He survived, but injured, and IIRC, won the suit.
mquander 16y ago
Of course you couldn't legally set that up, are you insane? On what planet would that be justifiable? Even in Texas, you need to demonstrate a reasonable belief that you were in imminent danger of being robbed or attacked before you are permitted to use deadly force on an intruder in your home.
- Jach 16y ago
  Planet Earth. While not exactly the same thing, there were automatic machine guns on the Berlin Wall. I'm not trying to justify it though, just wondering if the police or FBI ever take it into consideration before they go around busting doors before knocking. (Other possibilities include rigging a Microwave without a front door to turn on and temporarily/permanently blind whoever comes through.)
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  Somebody bursting down your door in the middle of the night isn't "reasonable belief that you were in imminent danger of being robbed or attacked"? What world do you live in? Ignore the silly mechanism described, and imagine you're sleeping in bed with your wife at 3am, and are a completely law abiding citizen as far as you are concerned. Why would you possibly have any reason to believe that the people violently breaking down your door and and yelling have good intentions? This isn't hypothetical, this kind of shit has actually happened. Both innocent people, and cops, have died in these sort of situations.
  - pyre 16y ago
    You're supposed to trust them because they yell "police" or "fbi" as they burst in. Sure an intruder could yell the same thing, but it's the same idea as their badges. Easily faked, but they just have harsh penalties for impersonating law enforcement.
    - burgerbrain 16y ago
      It's 3am and you're sleeping. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't notice first what they were yelling, but rather that there are a lot of flash-lights and load yelling where my locked front door used to be. You could also argue that you're supposed to trust them because they have badges, but the fact of the matter is that expecting you to be reasonably aware of that is, well, unreasonable. Go read the accounts of people who encountered this sort of situation and were lucky enough to not get killed in the process, whether they fought back or not (just jumping out of bed or daring to act surprised can get you shot here).
fleitz 16y ago
Booby traps are a definite no, as for what would happen in a plausible scenario, read this: http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/31/drug-raid-gone-bad http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/31/drug-raid-gone-bad

by Jach 16y ago

dpatru 16y ago

One of the first cases in a law school tort class is Katko v Briney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katko_v._Briney). Briney was a farmer fed up with a break-ins of an abandoned house that he owned. He set up a shotgun to shoot at an intruder's knees if and when the intruder forced the door. Katko, a trespasser, broke in and was shot and injured, sued and won. The quote I remember is (I had to look it up): ‘The value of human life and limb, not only to the individual concerned but also to society, so outweights the interest of a possessor of land in excluding from it those whom he is not willing to admit thereto that a possessor of land has . . . no privilege to use force intended or likely to cause death or serious harm against another whom the possessor sees about to enter his premises or meddle with his chattel, unless the intrusion threatens death or serious bodily harm to the occupiers or users of the premises.

InclinedPlane 16y ago

No, you cannot legally create lethal booby traps, in any state in the US.

Jach 16y ago
Good to know. How about non-lethal? (Say, something that might break a few bones but you'll recover.)
- rdouble 16y ago
  Anything that can maim is legally "lethal force." There are legally defensible reasons for breaking into someone else's property. For example, if someone thinks there is someone incapacitated inside, or if someone is running from danger and needs to hide. Finally, it's not really a booby trap if you're inside deciding which visitors get blasted.
- tghw 16y ago
  No. I can't find it right now, but there was a burglar who successfully sued a guy who set up some sort of electrical booby-trap. He survived, but injured, and IIRC, won the suit.

mquander 16y ago

Of course you couldn't legally set that up, are you insane? On what planet would that be justifiable? Even in Texas, you need to demonstrate a reasonable belief that you were in imminent danger of being robbed or attacked before you are permitted to use deadly force on an intruder in your home.

Jach 16y ago
Planet Earth. While not exactly the same thing, there were automatic machine guns on the Berlin Wall. I'm not trying to justify it though, just wondering if the police or FBI ever take it into consideration before they go around busting doors before knocking. (Other possibilities include rigging a Microwave without a front door to turn on and temporarily/permanently blind whoever comes through.)
burgerbrain 16y ago
Somebody bursting down your door in the middle of the night isn't "reasonable belief that you were in imminent danger of being robbed or attacked"? What world do you live in? Ignore the silly mechanism described, and imagine you're sleeping in bed with your wife at 3am, and are a completely law abiding citizen as far as you are concerned. Why would you possibly have any reason to believe that the people violently breaking down your door and and yelling have good intentions? This isn't hypothetical, this kind of shit has actually happened. Both innocent people, and cops, have died in these sort of situations.
- pyre 16y ago
  You're supposed to trust them because they yell "police" or "fbi" as they burst in. Sure an intruder could yell the same thing, but it's the same idea as their badges. Easily faked, but they just have harsh penalties for impersonating law enforcement.
  - burgerbrain 16y ago
    It's 3am and you're sleeping. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't notice first what they were yelling, but rather that there are a lot of flash-lights and load yelling where my locked front door used to be. You could also argue that you're supposed to trust them because they have badges, but the fact of the matter is that expecting you to be reasonably aware of that is, well, unreasonable. Go read the accounts of people who encountered this sort of situation and were lucky enough to not get killed in the process, whether they fought back or not (just jumping out of bed or daring to act surprised can get you shot here).

fleitz 16y ago

Booby traps are a definite no, as for what would happen in a plausible scenario, read this: http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/31/drug-raid-gone-bad http://reason.com/archives/2010/08/31/drug-raid-gone-bad