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> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actively discourages any sort of rational individual thought As an active member, I can say that this comment

by Osiris 7y ago

> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actively discourages any sort of rational individual thought As an active member, I can say that this comment is untrue. The Church actively encourages education. A simple example is the amount of money it pours into the BYU education system. There is a big emphasis on acquiring knowledge and wisdom. I actually think that the first two factors are more important and more relate to the culture of the state of Utah than of the Church as a whole.

Forbo 7y ago
There is a big emphasis on acquiring the "right" knowledge and wisdom. Anything thing factually based that runs afoul of the teachings of the Church are immediately smeared as being "anti-church literature peddled by the Adversary." For numerous examples, see pretty much everything cited in Letter to a CES Director, despite all of this being sourced first-hand from Church documents.
yellowapple 7y ago
> A simple example is the amount of money it pours into the BYU education system. You mean the university system named after the guy who led the Mormons to Utah after Joseph Smith died? The one that's owned and operated by the CoJCoLDS? Gee, no connection or bias there, no siree. There's an emphasis on acquiring "knowledge" and "wisdom" if and only if it happens to agree with Church doctrine and avoids being critical of the Church in any way. "Brigham Young University exists to provide education in an atmosphere consistent with Church ideals and principles."; BYU's words¹, not mine. Those principles would obviously include those outlined in scripture, which consequently includes enforcing Mormon doctrine as "the truth" with little to no room for compromise; this is consistent with BYU's Statement on Academic Freedom², where said "freedom" is implicitly (if not explicitly) stated to be only for those who believe in and obey the Church and its teachings to the letter. The AAUP has described at length³ BYU's frequent infringements on academic freedom for its faculty (typically by punishing those who teach things that might make the Church look bad, even if those things are factually correct). My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, but it is indeed the truth. I know it's an unpleasant truth, and I know it conflicts with what the Church has taught us both, but it's a truth that unfortunately we can't afford to ignore. ---- ¹: https://web.archive.org/web/20070927051804/http://ce.byu.edu/ed/edweek/form1.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20070927051804/http://ce.byu.edu... ²: https://web.archive.org/web/20070204112544/http://fc.byu.edu/opages/reference/academicfreedom.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20070204112544/http://fc.byu.edu... ³: https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/27EB0A08-8D25-4415-9E55-8081CC874AC5/0/Brigham.pdf https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/27EB0A08-8D25-4415-9E55-80...
jacurtis 7y ago
The church does emphasize (careful) secular education. But I think the original comment was referring more to doctrinal education, which the church actively discourages. Also, if doctrinal education ever conflicts with secular education, then doctrine trumps everything. The example of the money the church pumps into BYU does more to hurt your counter-argument than to help it. The church pumps so much money into BYU so that it can provide formal education to its members, while controlling the education experience. The purpose of BYU is exactly to further the controlled church experience and controlled education of the world. In fact, the Church is incredibly smart in how they operate. The most personal interaction you have with the church is between the ages of 18 - 25. These are the most malleable ages for a young adult, since this is the time that they naturally seek direction and purpose in their life. The church is top of mind for members during this time, and so the church has created a system where they can control these important years to mold future faithful followers and spread the religion. The day you turn 18 they start "preparing you for a mission". Then they send you to the temple where you are told that you have now entered into covenants that, if broken, will now fuck you up for eternity. With the fear of your eternal salvation in the balance, they then send you off for 2 years to a church obedience boot camp (usually referred to by the euphemism of "a mission") where they literally control everything you say, think, or do for 2 full years. They pull you away from the environment you once knew, even frequently to another country. They control who you associate during these years, and try to build habits towards being a good future member. As soon as you graduate from the 2 year boot camp, they promise a sex-deprived 21 year old that they can now get laid by going to BYU and finding a beautiful mormon virgin who has been waiting for them their entire life. Then at BYU they can again control the narrative of your life. Curriculums meet national standards for accreditation here, but are also taught by other members who are committed to controlling the narrative of the Church. Now that you are married, you are encouraged to start having kids. Most BYU grads will already have kids by the time of their graduation. Once you have kids, now the emphasis is to raise them within the church. They will now begin primary school (as you once did) and continue the cycle that you just completed. By the time the church "lets go" of you during this important part of your life, you are 25 or 26 years old, already have several kids, and you don't want to ruin their lives by questioning church teachings. You final job as a 26 year old member is to "endure to the end". Quite possibly the saddest, most depressing stage of Mormonism. I hate when my Grandma tells me she is "enduring to the end". During this stage (between ~30 -> death) your goal is to "endure". Not enjoy, but endure. During the endurance stage you are told to: go get a job so you can pay for your kids and pay your 10% of your pre-tax income as "tithing". Go to church every sunday. Take your kids to church every wednesday. Go to the temple for further doctrine reinforcement on Saturday. Don't drink coffee, tea, alcohol. Don't think impure thoughts. Just rinse and repeat. Just "endure", until you have the pleasure of dying. BYU is very important to the Church's membership and tithing dollars. They aren't running that church from the bottom of their hearts. It all controls their members. If you remove BYU from the church's plan (as outlined above), they would lose MANY MANY members during those important ages of 18-25. They have created an effective algorithm/strategy that creates a cycle of promises and control mechanisms to keep you in the hamster wheel. BYU is critical to that strategy. That is also why BYU Idaho exists. It allowed them to broaden their net to even more young adults. This is mostly the controlled experience that a man would experience within Mormonism. Unfortunately a woman's experience is even more depressing and controlled. But follows a similar outline. So back to the original point. Yes, I would argue that in fact, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actively discourages any sort of rational individual thought".

by Osiris 7y ago

Forbo 7y ago

There is a big emphasis on acquiring the "right" knowledge and wisdom. Anything thing factually based that runs afoul of the teachings of the Church are immediately smeared as being "anti-church literature peddled by the Adversary." For numerous examples, see pretty much everything cited in Letter to a CES Director, despite all of this being sourced first-hand from Church documents.

yellowapple 7y ago

> A simple example is the amount of money it pours into the BYU education system. You mean the university system named after the guy who led the Mormons to Utah after Joseph Smith died? The one that's owned and operated by the CoJCoLDS? Gee, no connection or bias there, no siree. There's an emphasis on acquiring "knowledge" and "wisdom" if and only if it happens to agree with Church doctrine and avoids being critical of the Church in any way. "Brigham Young University exists to provide education in an atmosphere consistent with Church ideals and principles."; BYU's words¹, not mine. Those principles would obviously include those outlined in scripture, which consequently includes enforcing Mormon doctrine as "the truth" with little to no room for compromise; this is consistent with BYU's Statement on Academic Freedom², where said "freedom" is implicitly (if not explicitly) stated to be only for those who believe in and obey the Church and its teachings to the letter. The AAUP has described at length³ BYU's frequent infringements on academic freedom for its faculty (typically by punishing those who teach things that might make the Church look bad, even if those things are factually correct). My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, but it is indeed the truth. I know it's an unpleasant truth, and I know it conflicts with what the Church has taught us both, but it's a truth that unfortunately we can't afford to ignore. ---- ¹: https://web.archive.org/web/20070927051804/http://ce.byu.edu/ed/edweek/form1.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20070927051804/http://ce.byu.edu... ²: https://web.archive.org/web/20070204112544/http://fc.byu.edu/opages/reference/academicfreedom.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20070204112544/http://fc.byu.edu... ³: https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/27EB0A08-8D25-4415-9E55-8081CC874AC5/0/Brigham.pdf https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/27EB0A08-8D25-4415-9E55-80...

jacurtis 7y ago

The church does emphasize (careful) secular education. But I think the original comment was referring more to doctrinal education, which the church actively discourages. Also, if doctrinal education ever conflicts with secular education, then doctrine trumps everything. The example of the money the church pumps into BYU does more to hurt your counter-argument than to help it. The church pumps so much money into BYU so that it can provide formal education to its members, while controlling the education experience. The purpose of BYU is exactly to further the controlled church experience and controlled education of the world. In fact, the Church is incredibly smart in how they operate. The most personal interaction you have with the church is between the ages of 18 - 25. These are the most malleable ages for a young adult, since this is the time that they naturally seek direction and purpose in their life. The church is top of mind for members during this time, and so the church has created a system where they can control these important years to mold future faithful followers and spread the religion. The day you turn 18 they start "preparing you for a mission". Then they send you to the temple where you are told that you have now entered into covenants that, if broken, will now fuck you up for eternity. With the fear of your eternal salvation in the balance, they then send you off for 2 years to a church obedience boot camp (usually referred to by the euphemism of "a mission") where they literally control everything you say, think, or do for 2 full years. They pull you away from the environment you once knew, even frequently to another country. They control who you associate during these years, and try to build habits towards being a good future member. As soon as you graduate from the 2 year boot camp, they promise a sex-deprived 21 year old that they can now get laid by going to BYU and finding a beautiful mormon virgin who has been waiting for them their entire life. Then at BYU they can again control the narrative of your life. Curriculums meet national standards for accreditation here, but are also taught by other members who are committed to controlling the narrative of the Church. Now that you are married, you are encouraged to start having kids. Most BYU grads will already have kids by the time of their graduation. Once you have kids, now the emphasis is to raise them within the church. They will now begin primary school (as you once did) and continue the cycle that you just completed. By the time the church "lets go" of you during this important part of your life, you are 25 or 26 years old, already have several kids, and you don't want to ruin their lives by questioning church teachings. You final job as a 26 year old member is to "endure to the end". Quite possibly the saddest, most depressing stage of Mormonism. I hate when my Grandma tells me she is "enduring to the end". During this stage (between ~30 -> death) your goal is to "endure". Not enjoy, but endure. During the endurance stage you are told to: go get a job so you can pay for your kids and pay your 10% of your pre-tax income as "tithing". Go to church every sunday. Take your kids to church every wednesday. Go to the temple for further doctrine reinforcement on Saturday. Don't drink coffee, tea, alcohol. Don't think impure thoughts. Just rinse and repeat. Just "endure", until you have the pleasure of dying. BYU is very important to the Church's membership and tithing dollars. They aren't running that church from the bottom of their hearts. It all controls their members. If you remove BYU from the church's plan (as outlined above), they would lose MANY MANY members during those important ages of 18-25. They have created an effective algorithm/strategy that creates a cycle of promises and control mechanisms to keep you in the hamster wheel. BYU is critical to that strategy. That is also why BYU Idaho exists. It allowed them to broaden their net to even more young adults. This is mostly the controlled experience that a man would experience within Mormonism. Unfortunately a woman's experience is even more depressing and controlled. But follows a similar outline. So back to the original point. Yes, I would argue that in fact, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints actively discourages any sort of rational individual thought".