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Not OP, but my gut agrees with his. Very tricky issue and I don't think anyone can say who is "right", so I fall back to one universal principle to inform my op

by baumy 7y ago

Not OP, but my gut agrees with his. Very tricky issue and I don't think anyone can say who is "right", so I fall back to one universal principle to inform my opinion here, as well as a general societal observation. The principle: moderation is almost always best. This applies to food and exercise, to work/life balance, to sex and drugs, and everything in between. Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). People will always be drawn to porn because sex is the one "addiction" that almost everyone is born with, but having a thin healthy layer of public shame helps to encourage people not to go too far down the rabbit hole. Societal observation: society seems to be becoming shallower, more transactional, particularly in the realm of dating. In my opinion, unrealistic expectations of each other in a sexual context is one of the biggest causes of this, because when those expectations go unmet people move on to the next person they find on some app, instead of investing time into building a relationship and seeing if it can work (and growing themselves as a result of that investment). I think pornography contributes to these unrealistic expectations, and thus to making society more shallow. I'm always cautious to dive into this too much in today's political climate, but I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society (possibly all of western society, but I'm a bit too ignorant to speak on that). I think pornography contributes to this as well.

caconym_ 7y ago
> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. > I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society What downsides? What exactly do you mean by "extreme levels of sexual liberation"?
- baumy 7y ago
  > This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. If you still trust any citations to social science research in 2019, I have a bridge to sell you. Unfortunately it is my strong belief that for the moment, we're on our own on this one. When discussing climate change, programming language trade-offs, tax policy, etc, give me all the evidence and data. But for this particular area of study, I trust my own observations/life experiences more than any research. I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. For this particular subset of the issue though, you can google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles that describe this position and list the various downsides, most of them more clearly and articulately than I can (and some will also describe the behavioral patterns that could be characterized as "extreme sexual liberation"). I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Edit: In case it wasn't clear I just want to explicitly state my position: I am glad that pornography exists, I am glad that it is legal, and I am glad there is a bit of a stigma around it. I hope none of those things change.
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    > I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. I don't "hate" it; I just don't think it's worth anything. It's incredibly foolish to think that your own experiences qualify you to make sweeping statements about something as weird and subtle as human sexuality. > As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. Probably not. They're not my cup of tea personally, just because I am who I am, but again I don't consider that a basis for making a value judgment. I would love to hear you clearly articulate why you do attach a negative value judgment to this hypothetical increase in casual sex. Maybe you will change my mind—I am a reasonable person. > google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles The results of this were laughable. Nothing but more opinion and editorializing (that seems to be a theme here). > I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Well, this is the internet and I'm not going to threaten you. If you can't produce a cogent argument, that's on you.
hippich 7y ago
> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex What about couples with different libido (and functioning well otherwise). What about people who can't find a couple. What about people from any LGBTQ minority (and especially in countries where it is way less liberal/legal than USA?). I hate myself for saying that, but I think that particular phrase above is a symptom of a privileged position, since following "investing time into building a relationship" sounds quite similar to "why you just don't stop doing crime/drugs/alcohol and go to college", "why you just don't stop eat and do some runs instead".

by baumy 7y ago

caconym_ 7y ago

> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. > I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society What downsides? What exactly do you mean by "extreme levels of sexual liberation"?

baumy 7y ago
> This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. If you still trust any citations to social science research in 2019, I have a bridge to sell you. Unfortunately it is my strong belief that for the moment, we're on our own on this one. When discussing climate change, programming language trade-offs, tax policy, etc, give me all the evidence and data. But for this particular area of study, I trust my own observations/life experiences more than any research. I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. For this particular subset of the issue though, you can google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles that describe this position and list the various downsides, most of them more clearly and articulately than I can (and some will also describe the behavioral patterns that could be characterized as "extreme sexual liberation"). I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Edit: In case it wasn't clear I just want to explicitly state my position: I am glad that pornography exists, I am glad that it is legal, and I am glad there is a bit of a stigma around it. I hope none of those things change.
- caconym_ 7y ago
  > I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. I don't "hate" it; I just don't think it's worth anything. It's incredibly foolish to think that your own experiences qualify you to make sweeping statements about something as weird and subtle as human sexuality. > As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. Probably not. They're not my cup of tea personally, just because I am who I am, but again I don't consider that a basis for making a value judgment. I would love to hear you clearly articulate why you do attach a negative value judgment to this hypothetical increase in casual sex. Maybe you will change my mind—I am a reasonable person. > google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles The results of this were laughable. Nothing but more opinion and editorializing (that seems to be a theme here). > I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Well, this is the internet and I'm not going to threaten you. If you can't produce a cogent argument, that's on you.

hippich 7y ago

> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex What about couples with different libido (and functioning well otherwise). What about people who can't find a couple. What about people from any LGBTQ minority (and especially in countries where it is way less liberal/legal than USA?). I hate myself for saying that, but I think that particular phrase above is a symptom of a privileged position, since following "investing time into building a relationship" sounds quite similar to "why you just don't stop doing crime/drugs/alcohol and go to college", "why you just don't stop eat and do some runs instead".