4 ms·

> I think the fact that pornography is viewed negatively, at least in public, is a good thing. I'd love to see your thoughts on this expanded. I don't have a p

> I think the fact that pornography is viewed negatively, at least in public, is a good thing. I'd love to see your thoughts on this expanded. I don't have a particularly rigorously formed opinion on this, but my gut disagrees. I'd settle for some links to articles/etc. that reflect your viewpoint.

baumy 7y ago
Not OP, but my gut agrees with his. Very tricky issue and I don't think anyone can say who is "right", so I fall back to one universal principle to inform my opinion here, as well as a general societal observation. The principle: moderation is almost always best. This applies to food and exercise, to work/life balance, to sex and drugs, and everything in between. Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). People will always be drawn to porn because sex is the one "addiction" that almost everyone is born with, but having a thin healthy layer of public shame helps to encourage people not to go too far down the rabbit hole. Societal observation: society seems to be becoming shallower, more transactional, particularly in the realm of dating. In my opinion, unrealistic expectations of each other in a sexual context is one of the biggest causes of this, because when those expectations go unmet people move on to the next person they find on some app, instead of investing time into building a relationship and seeing if it can work (and growing themselves as a result of that investment). I think pornography contributes to these unrealistic expectations, and thus to making society more shallow. I'm always cautious to dive into this too much in today's political climate, but I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society (possibly all of western society, but I'm a bit too ignorant to speak on that). I think pornography contributes to this as well.
- caconym_ 7y ago
  > Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. > I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society What downsides? What exactly do you mean by "extreme levels of sexual liberation"?
  - baumy 7y ago
    > This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. If you still trust any citations to social science research in 2019, I have a bridge to sell you. Unfortunately it is my strong belief that for the moment, we're on our own on this one. When discussing climate change, programming language trade-offs, tax policy, etc, give me all the evidence and data. But for this particular area of study, I trust my own observations/life experiences more than any research. I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. For this particular subset of the issue though, you can google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles that describe this position and list the various downsides, most of them more clearly and articulately than I can (and some will also describe the behavioral patterns that could be characterized as "extreme sexual liberation"). I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Edit: In case it wasn't clear I just want to explicitly state my position: I am glad that pornography exists, I am glad that it is legal, and I am glad there is a bit of a stigma around it. I hope none of those things change.
    - caconym_ 7y ago
      > I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. I don't "hate" it; I just don't think it's worth anything. It's incredibly foolish to think that your own experiences qualify you to make sweeping statements about something as weird and subtle as human sexuality. > As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. Probably not. They're not my cup of tea personally, just because I am who I am, but again I don't consider that a basis for making a value judgment. I would love to hear you clearly articulate why you do attach a negative value judgment to this hypothetical increase in casual sex. Maybe you will change my mind—I am a reasonable person. > google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles The results of this were laughable. Nothing but more opinion and editorializing (that seems to be a theme here). > I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Well, this is the internet and I'm not going to threaten you. If you can't produce a cogent argument, that's on you.
- hippich 7y ago
  > Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex What about couples with different libido (and functioning well otherwise). What about people who can't find a couple. What about people from any LGBTQ minority (and especially in countries where it is way less liberal/legal than USA?). I hate myself for saying that, but I think that particular phrase above is a symptom of a privileged position, since following "investing time into building a relationship" sounds quite similar to "why you just don't stop doing crime/drugs/alcohol and go to college", "why you just don't stop eat and do some runs instead".
x220 7y ago
Pornography is a symptom of the commodification of sex, much like legal prostitution, sugar-daddies, and even the transactional swiping hookup apps that dominate dating among lower age groups. It is the tendency of a capital-dominated culture to turn everything into a commodity that is bought and sold; sex is merely one element that this system has consumed. After the wide acceptance of the birth control pill, the trend has been for women to take the same career and life path as men. Women no longer need long term relationships for sex or material needs; sex in the age of the birth control pill is done on women's terms and negotiated for a price they accept, as long as that relationship does not interfere with maximum capitalist production. It's possible that if sex were not a commodity, we would be happier and more mentally healthy.
- int_19h 7y ago
  Sex was bought and sold long before capitalism, though. And I don't even mean prostitution, although that one is obvious. But in traditional patriarchal societies, brides are often effectively bought and sold, and sex is a part of that package. The difference is whether the benefactor is the woman herself, or somebody else. In a very cynical sense, in a traditional society, women are "capital" of a very special kind - they are the "means of production" of heirs. And heirs are necessary for the family line to accumulate other kinds of capital over time.
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    Agreed. And I think a large fraction of men (the ones who naturally suck at seducing women to begin with), if given the means to both reproduce and achieve sexual gratification WITHOUT women, would leap at the opportunity. Women recognize this, which is why they so heavily resist things like sex robots or even male contraception. Jango Fett from Star Wars Episode 2 was an archetypal MGTOW and ahead of his time: cloning himself and investing all of his resources in transferring his accumulated life experience and knowledge to his "son"....no resource-sharing woman involved. Personally I consider that a very dystopian potential future....
    - int_19h 7y ago
lordgrenville 7y ago
It's really interesting to see the two responses to this, one "trad" and one socialist! I'll give my two cents as well. I'm persuaded by the arguments of second-wave, sort-of "sex-negative" feminists like Catherine McKinnon and Andrea Dworkin. Modern feminism seems mostly to have moved towards supporting the idea that sex work can be empowering and freely chosen. And it's true that with the internet this can be much more of a reality. Still, most of what I've read, and documentaries such as Hot Girls Wanted, imply that the vast majority of women working in porn and sex work have concomitant drug and alcohol problems and/or mental illness, and the job takes a huge psychological toll. It's not conducive with happiness and a positive image of oneself and others. I think it's probably good (not to mention unavoidable) that pornography exists in society, but it should be less abundant and more stigmatised.

baumy 7y ago

Not OP, but my gut agrees with his. Very tricky issue and I don't think anyone can say who is "right", so I fall back to one universal principle to inform my opinion here, as well as a general societal observation. The principle: moderation is almost always best. This applies to food and exercise, to work/life balance, to sex and drugs, and everything in between. Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). People will always be drawn to porn because sex is the one "addiction" that almost everyone is born with, but having a thin healthy layer of public shame helps to encourage people not to go too far down the rabbit hole. Societal observation: society seems to be becoming shallower, more transactional, particularly in the realm of dating. In my opinion, unrealistic expectations of each other in a sexual context is one of the biggest causes of this, because when those expectations go unmet people move on to the next person they find on some app, instead of investing time into building a relationship and seeing if it can work (and growing themselves as a result of that investment). I think pornography contributes to these unrealistic expectations, and thus to making society more shallow. I'm always cautious to dive into this too much in today's political climate, but I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society (possibly all of western society, but I'm a bit too ignorant to speak on that). I think pornography contributes to this as well.

caconym_ 7y ago
> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex, but the extreme end of it - you crave sexual stimulation so badly that you resort to watching other people having their sexual urges fulfilled (which can then make the porn consumer less motivated to pursue healthy avenues to achieve their own sexual fulfillment, leading to a downward spiral). This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. > I also think there are significant societal downsides to the more extreme levels of sexual liberation that are rapidly becoming normalized in American society What downsides? What exactly do you mean by "extreme levels of sexual liberation"?
- baumy 7y ago
  > This is equal parts editorializing and [citation needed]. Keep in mind that correlation != causation. If you still trust any citations to social science research in 2019, I have a bridge to sell you. Unfortunately it is my strong belief that for the moment, we're on our own on this one. When discussing climate change, programming language trade-offs, tax policy, etc, give me all the evidence and data. But for this particular area of study, I trust my own observations/life experiences more than any research. I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. For this particular subset of the issue though, you can google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles that describe this position and list the various downsides, most of them more clearly and articulately than I can (and some will also describe the behavioral patterns that could be characterized as "extreme sexual liberation"). I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Edit: In case it wasn't clear I just want to explicitly state my position: I am glad that pornography exists, I am glad that it is legal, and I am glad there is a bit of a stigma around it. I hope none of those things change.
  - caconym_ 7y ago
    > I'm sure you and many other HNers will hate that answer, but I stand by it. I don't "hate" it; I just don't think it's worth anything. It's incredibly foolish to think that your own experiences qualify you to make sweeping statements about something as weird and subtle as human sexuality. > As to your second point, if shallow and transactional sexual relationships becoming more common does not seem to you like a downside, I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. Probably not. They're not my cup of tea personally, just because I am who I am, but again I don't consider that a basis for making a value judgment. I would love to hear you clearly articulate why you do attach a negative value judgment to this hypothetical increase in casual sex. Maybe you will change my mind—I am a reasonable person. > google "consequences of extreme sexual liberation" and find any number of articles The results of this were laughable. Nothing but more opinion and editorializing (that seems to be a theme here). > I'm unwilling to go into more detail as sharing my opinions on topics less controversial than this has resulted in real life threats more than once. Well, this is the internet and I'm not going to threaten you. If you can't produce a cogent argument, that's on you.
hippich 7y ago
> Pornography consumption generally does not represent "moderation" of sex What about couples with different libido (and functioning well otherwise). What about people who can't find a couple. What about people from any LGBTQ minority (and especially in countries where it is way less liberal/legal than USA?). I hate myself for saying that, but I think that particular phrase above is a symptom of a privileged position, since following "investing time into building a relationship" sounds quite similar to "why you just don't stop doing crime/drugs/alcohol and go to college", "why you just don't stop eat and do some runs instead".

x220 7y ago

Pornography is a symptom of the commodification of sex, much like legal prostitution, sugar-daddies, and even the transactional swiping hookup apps that dominate dating among lower age groups. It is the tendency of a capital-dominated culture to turn everything into a commodity that is bought and sold; sex is merely one element that this system has consumed. After the wide acceptance of the birth control pill, the trend has been for women to take the same career and life path as men. Women no longer need long term relationships for sex or material needs; sex in the age of the birth control pill is done on women's terms and negotiated for a price they accept, as long as that relationship does not interfere with maximum capitalist production. It's possible that if sex were not a commodity, we would be happier and more mentally healthy.

int_19h 7y ago
Sex was bought and sold long before capitalism, though. And I don't even mean prostitution, although that one is obvious. But in traditional patriarchal societies, brides are often effectively bought and sold, and sex is a part of that package. The difference is whether the benefactor is the woman herself, or somebody else. In a very cynical sense, in a traditional society, women are "capital" of a very special kind - they are the "means of production" of heirs. And heirs are necessary for the family line to accumulate other kinds of capital over time.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  Agreed. And I think a large fraction of men (the ones who naturally suck at seducing women to begin with), if given the means to both reproduce and achieve sexual gratification WITHOUT women, would leap at the opportunity. Women recognize this, which is why they so heavily resist things like sex robots or even male contraception. Jango Fett from Star Wars Episode 2 was an archetypal MGTOW and ahead of his time: cloning himself and investing all of his resources in transferring his accumulated life experience and knowledge to his "son"....no resource-sharing woman involved. Personally I consider that a very dystopian potential future....
  - int_19h 7y ago

lordgrenville 7y ago

It's really interesting to see the two responses to this, one "trad" and one socialist! I'll give my two cents as well. I'm persuaded by the arguments of second-wave, sort-of "sex-negative" feminists like Catherine McKinnon and Andrea Dworkin. Modern feminism seems mostly to have moved towards supporting the idea that sex work can be empowering and freely chosen. And it's true that with the internet this can be much more of a reality. Still, most of what I've read, and documentaries such as Hot Girls Wanted, imply that the vast majority of women working in porn and sex work have concomitant drug and alcohol problems and/or mental illness, and the job takes a huge psychological toll. It's not conducive with happiness and a positive image of oneself and others. I think it's probably good (not to mention unavoidable) that pornography exists in society, but it should be less abundant and more stigmatised.