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You’re probably being downvoted because of this statement, which is blatantly wrong: > The only reason they went to the cloud is because most people were buyin

You’re probably being downvoted because of this statement, which is blatantly wrong: > The only reason they went to the cloud is because most people were buying one copy and sharing it with multiple people. It’s cloud-based because the majority of password management users want automatic cross-device updates without setting up their own server.

gruez 7y ago
>It’s cloud-based because the majority of password management users want automatic cross-device updates without setting up their own server. So? You can put the database on gdrive, icloud, dropbox, or any cloud service you want. I think most users understand the concept of creating a file, putting stuff in it, and putting it on a file syncing service (or usb drive).
- ToFundorNot 7y ago
  Or you can build your own pc from open market components, or maybe build your own components by designing your own pcb and sourcing the chips, and write your own drivers, or... etc. Some people don't want to roll their own. You may, or may not agree with the concept of a fully managed solution, but for any non technical user, they want it to (borrow a phrase) "just work". It's the majority of the addressable market.
  - marmaduke 7y ago
    Even as a dev and ops engineer, or especially so perhaps, I want passwords to just work. Sure I could write my own but why.
    - gtf21 7y ago
      Couldn't agree more -- I have limited time in my life, time I don't want to spend maintaining absolutely every service I use. Very happy to pay someone else to build good software and make the pain go away.
- ncallaway 7y ago
  > I think most users understand the concept of creating a file, putting stuff in it, and putting it on a file syncing service (or usb drive) Many do, many don't. Even for those that do, there is a significant hassle in getting a file sharing service (gdrive, icloud, dropbox) etc onto every possible device they have. I mean, I'm with you in that I'm personally pretty skeptical of the cloud-based pw solution. But I can absolutely understand the story about a much simpler user-experience that it offers.
  - gruez 7y ago
    >there is a significant hassle in getting a file sharing service (gdrive, icloud, dropbox) etc onto every possible device they have. What is this "significant hassle"? Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? >Many do, many don't. I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big.
    - hnra 7y ago
      > What is this "significant hassle"? Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? Or no app, just add the browser extension and you're done. Seems a lot easier to me than downloading two other apps, one I have no use for other than syncing the other one.
    - ncallaway 7y ago
      > Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? It's literally twice as much work. Often more, because I need the password to the sync app's service. Where's that stored? How many characters is it? Oh, it's a secure, 20-32 character password. What a pain to re-type it. Good thing it uses a ton of symbols which are a pain to type on my mobile keyboard. > I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big. It's not "people who don't know how to manipulate files", it's "people who don't _like_ to manipulate files, and external services, and get them onto all of their devices". Further, I expect the proportion of the first circle is constant and relatively small (<10%). I expect the proportion of the second circle _was_ small, but is growing extremely rapidly.
- steveklabnik 7y ago
  I absolutely understand these concepts. That's exactly why I don't want to do it.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  I'd wager thousands of dollars that less than 20% of internet users understand this to the point that they won't blame others if they screw something up.
robenkleene 7y ago
It's cloud-based so they can hold your data hostage and charge a subscription fee. The cloud synced updating features you're talking about work fine for me already with 1Password's iCloud-backed syncing, which is how most Mac and iOS apps sync data, it's just in that model Apple has control of my data, not 1Password (and I don't pay a subscription fee), so they make it incredibly difficult to configure that way.
- ymolodtsov 7y ago
  You do realize you’re literally like the person who was saying “who needs Dropbox i can do it myself in 5 bash lines”?
  - robenkleene 7y ago
    Wha..? I'm totally not following, iCloud syncing is completely transparent and built-in to 1Password. There's 0 extra work to support it (outside of finding how to turn it on, because it's buried in the UI), there's literally less work than 1Password's own subscription service, because that requires setting up an account whereas iCloud doesn't.
    - hnra 7y ago
      You can use iCloud without an account? Is iCloud available outside of Apple ecosystem? Otherwise it doesn't seem very relevant since its not a general solution.
      - robenkleene 7y ago
        Yes, you're right, this only works for Apple devices, so going cross-ecosystem is definitely a benefit of their subscription service! I disagree on that meaning it's the iCloud solution is irrelevant though, skipping the $36/a year, and the additional control over your data not being on a subscription entails, seem like relevant benefits for the people who fit those requirements!
      - inferiorhuman 7y ago
jonathankoren 7y ago
That’s why you create a free Dropbox account or just use your free iCloud account. This is even what 1Password used to recommend as part of its setup, if I remember correctly. I’d it was simply storage, the. It would be an add on, but it’s not. It seems like it’s more of a strategy to increase cash flow by converting to ongoing subscriptions instead of one time purchases. This is the same motivation that switched MS Office and Photoshop over to subscriptions. There’s no compelling reason to upgrade, so you get people to fork over a credit card and forget about their reoccurring charge. Cash flow becomes more predictable and possibly increases as well. This why service contract / subscription businesses are popular among investors. I don’t blame them for trying it, but let’s not pretend this is good for users.
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  Man you aren't thinking deep enough. Just set up your own FTP server! The truth is that my grandmother needs a password manager and she barely understands what minimizing a window does. "Just store your vault in dropbox" is friction and that matters much more to the huge majority of users than the fact that the vault is stored on a cloud service.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - signal11 7y ago
    > Dropbox... is friction Yes, completely agree. Dropbox sync has lots of gotchas and edge cases, and was particularly bad if you edited files on multiple systems (my workstation and laptop, for instance -- I use both interchangeably depending on what I'm doing). I can understand why 1Password built their own sync service instead of playing whack-a-mole with different cloud storage providers' quirks.
- awinder 7y ago
  So what 1password used to do was charge a higher application fee (think it was like 40 or 50 bucks?) and then also would charge again for larger version releases. Apple (which was/is the largest part of the user base) does not provide a way to do discount pricing on upgrades, and they do provide discounted cuts on their take for subscriptions after the first year. So they absolutely were able to drop the cost to end-users after all of that was factored in, although there are users who have to pay more (people who would stick on old versions). But that’s a nightmare / costly to support, and creates misalignment. Anyways all of that said, the 3rd party sync solutions all suffered from varying degrees of funkiness that just don’t exist with the native solution. Their switching to monthly pricing was, objectively, very successful and didn’t cost majority of users more money. But there are a small number of people who it rubbed the wrong way, clearly, but any business action is bound to piss some small number of people.

gruez 7y ago

>It’s cloud-based because the majority of password management users want automatic cross-device updates without setting up their own server. So? You can put the database on gdrive, icloud, dropbox, or any cloud service you want. I think most users understand the concept of creating a file, putting stuff in it, and putting it on a file syncing service (or usb drive).

ToFundorNot 7y ago
Or you can build your own pc from open market components, or maybe build your own components by designing your own pcb and sourcing the chips, and write your own drivers, or... etc. Some people don't want to roll their own. You may, or may not agree with the concept of a fully managed solution, but for any non technical user, they want it to (borrow a phrase) "just work". It's the majority of the addressable market.
- marmaduke 7y ago
  Even as a dev and ops engineer, or especially so perhaps, I want passwords to just work. Sure I could write my own but why.
  - gtf21 7y ago
    Couldn't agree more -- I have limited time in my life, time I don't want to spend maintaining absolutely every service I use. Very happy to pay someone else to build good software and make the pain go away.
ncallaway 7y ago
> I think most users understand the concept of creating a file, putting stuff in it, and putting it on a file syncing service (or usb drive) Many do, many don't. Even for those that do, there is a significant hassle in getting a file sharing service (gdrive, icloud, dropbox) etc onto every possible device they have. I mean, I'm with you in that I'm personally pretty skeptical of the cloud-based pw solution. But I can absolutely understand the story about a much simpler user-experience that it offers.
- gruez 7y ago
  >there is a significant hassle in getting a file sharing service (gdrive, icloud, dropbox) etc onto every possible device they have. What is this "significant hassle"? Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? >Many do, many don't. I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big.
  - hnra 7y ago
    > What is this "significant hassle"? Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? Or no app, just add the browser extension and you're done. Seems a lot easier to me than downloading two other apps, one I have no use for other than syncing the other one.
  - ncallaway 7y ago
    > Surely it's not that much harder to install [sync app] + [password app] than it is to install [password app]? It's literally twice as much work. Often more, because I need the password to the sync app's service. Where's that stored? How many characters is it? Oh, it's a secure, 20-32 character password. What a pain to re-type it. Good thing it uses a ton of symbols which are a pain to type on my mobile keyboard. > I suspect the intersection between "people who don't know how to manipulate files" and "people who care enough about passwords and are willing to fork over $36/yr" isn't big. It's not "people who don't know how to manipulate files", it's "people who don't _like_ to manipulate files, and external services, and get them onto all of their devices". Further, I expect the proportion of the first circle is constant and relatively small (<10%). I expect the proportion of the second circle _was_ small, but is growing extremely rapidly.
steveklabnik 7y ago
I absolutely understand these concepts. That's exactly why I don't want to do it.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
UncleMeat 7y ago
I'd wager thousands of dollars that less than 20% of internet users understand this to the point that they won't blame others if they screw something up.

robenkleene 7y ago

It's cloud-based so they can hold your data hostage and charge a subscription fee. The cloud synced updating features you're talking about work fine for me already with 1Password's iCloud-backed syncing, which is how most Mac and iOS apps sync data, it's just in that model Apple has control of my data, not 1Password (and I don't pay a subscription fee), so they make it incredibly difficult to configure that way.

ymolodtsov 7y ago
You do realize you’re literally like the person who was saying “who needs Dropbox i can do it myself in 5 bash lines”?
- robenkleene 7y ago
  Wha..? I'm totally not following, iCloud syncing is completely transparent and built-in to 1Password. There's 0 extra work to support it (outside of finding how to turn it on, because it's buried in the UI), there's literally less work than 1Password's own subscription service, because that requires setting up an account whereas iCloud doesn't.
  - hnra 7y ago
    You can use iCloud without an account? Is iCloud available outside of Apple ecosystem? Otherwise it doesn't seem very relevant since its not a general solution.
    - robenkleene 7y ago
      Yes, you're right, this only works for Apple devices, so going cross-ecosystem is definitely a benefit of their subscription service! I disagree on that meaning it's the iCloud solution is irrelevant though, skipping the $36/a year, and the additional control over your data not being on a subscription entails, seem like relevant benefits for the people who fit those requirements!
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago

jonathankoren 7y ago

That’s why you create a free Dropbox account or just use your free iCloud account. This is even what 1Password used to recommend as part of its setup, if I remember correctly. I’d it was simply storage, the. It would be an add on, but it’s not. It seems like it’s more of a strategy to increase cash flow by converting to ongoing subscriptions instead of one time purchases. This is the same motivation that switched MS Office and Photoshop over to subscriptions. There’s no compelling reason to upgrade, so you get people to fork over a credit card and forget about their reoccurring charge. Cash flow becomes more predictable and possibly increases as well. This why service contract / subscription businesses are popular among investors. I don’t blame them for trying it, but let’s not pretend this is good for users.

UncleMeat 7y ago
Man you aren't thinking deep enough. Just set up your own FTP server! The truth is that my grandmother needs a password manager and she barely understands what minimizing a window does. "Just store your vault in dropbox" is friction and that matters much more to the huge majority of users than the fact that the vault is stored on a cloud service.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- signal11 7y ago
  > Dropbox... is friction Yes, completely agree. Dropbox sync has lots of gotchas and edge cases, and was particularly bad if you edited files on multiple systems (my workstation and laptop, for instance -- I use both interchangeably depending on what I'm doing). I can understand why 1Password built their own sync service instead of playing whack-a-mole with different cloud storage providers' quirks.
awinder 7y ago
So what 1password used to do was charge a higher application fee (think it was like 40 or 50 bucks?) and then also would charge again for larger version releases. Apple (which was/is the largest part of the user base) does not provide a way to do discount pricing on upgrades, and they do provide discounted cuts on their take for subscriptions after the first year. So they absolutely were able to drop the cost to end-users after all of that was factored in, although there are users who have to pay more (people who would stick on old versions). But that’s a nightmare / costly to support, and creates misalignment. Anyways all of that said, the 3rd party sync solutions all suffered from varying degrees of funkiness that just don’t exist with the native solution. Their switching to monthly pricing was, objectively, very successful and didn’t cost majority of users more money. But there are a small number of people who it rubbed the wrong way, clearly, but any business action is bound to piss some small number of people.