4 ms·

So when/where did we branch out from the evolutionary-preferred routine? When were the teenagers waking up late during the day?

chongli 7y ago
In hunter-gatherer societies. Teens were full adults who could marry. They could stay up late, having sex all they wanted. There was no need to get up early since there were no cows to milk or any other chores like that. Life was governed only by the sun, not artificial clocks.
- Xelbair 7y ago
  If i recall right in hunter-gatherer societies people were naturally divided into different sleeping schedules - some wake up at dawn, other at noon etc. The whole community was always at least partially awake. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/personal-health-mastery/201708/what-hunter-gatherers-tell-us-about-natural-sleep-patterns https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/personal-health-mast...
- ntsplnkv2 7y ago
  Just a side note on these kind of things, how do we actually know? It seems with evolution, there are always these "common sense" answers. Oh, no cows to milk! no need to get up early, hence, teens have a different clock? It just seems like handwavy nonsense that makes "common sense" to us and it's accepted. School just sucks. It sucked when I was well rested and it sucked when I wasn't. Sleep deprivation may impact peformance. but I know one thing - the later I could wake up, the later I stayed up. Curious to see how these changes in California actually impact students.
  - chongli 7y ago
    We know because there are still hunter gatherer societies around today. We have scientists who have spent long periods of time living with them and learning their customs and way of life.
    - ntsplnkv2 7y ago
      That is interesting - but can we really say with certainty this is how it always was? Especially since there is bias added (they know of the existence of the scientist).
      - chongli 7y ago
        We can’t say anything with certainty in science. It’s all inductive reasoning. Maybe the errors bars are bigger in some fields more than others, but that’s all we can do. I doubt archaeological evidence will ever determine the sleep schedules of teenagers from the pre-agricultural days.
- watwut 7y ago
  Reality check: there is no reason to assume that marriage and adulthood meaning in hunter-gatherer society is same as now. We don't know have detailed sociological studies of hunter-gatherers. There is nothing about marriage or being sexual or able to provide offspring that implies the older and stronger individuals in your tribe will let you have full rights or do what you want. For all we know, you are still expected to do what they tell to you, except that you are pregnant as a bonus.
  - DFHippie 7y ago
    > We don't know have detailed sociological studies of hunter-gatherers. But we do. We don't know today's hunter-gatherers are identical to those of 10,000 years ago or more, but we've got them and there have been many studies of them.

chongli 7y ago

In hunter-gatherer societies. Teens were full adults who could marry. They could stay up late, having sex all they wanted. There was no need to get up early since there were no cows to milk or any other chores like that. Life was governed only by the sun, not artificial clocks.

Xelbair 7y ago
If i recall right in hunter-gatherer societies people were naturally divided into different sleeping schedules - some wake up at dawn, other at noon etc. The whole community was always at least partially awake. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/personal-health-mastery/201708/what-hunter-gatherers-tell-us-about-natural-sleep-patterns https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/personal-health-mast...
ntsplnkv2 7y ago
Just a side note on these kind of things, how do we actually know? It seems with evolution, there are always these "common sense" answers. Oh, no cows to milk! no need to get up early, hence, teens have a different clock? It just seems like handwavy nonsense that makes "common sense" to us and it's accepted. School just sucks. It sucked when I was well rested and it sucked when I wasn't. Sleep deprivation may impact peformance. but I know one thing - the later I could wake up, the later I stayed up. Curious to see how these changes in California actually impact students.
- chongli 7y ago
  We know because there are still hunter gatherer societies around today. We have scientists who have spent long periods of time living with them and learning their customs and way of life.
  - ntsplnkv2 7y ago
    That is interesting - but can we really say with certainty this is how it always was? Especially since there is bias added (they know of the existence of the scientist).
    - chongli 7y ago
      We can’t say anything with certainty in science. It’s all inductive reasoning. Maybe the errors bars are bigger in some fields more than others, but that’s all we can do. I doubt archaeological evidence will ever determine the sleep schedules of teenagers from the pre-agricultural days.
watwut 7y ago
Reality check: there is no reason to assume that marriage and adulthood meaning in hunter-gatherer society is same as now. We don't know have detailed sociological studies of hunter-gatherers. There is nothing about marriage or being sexual or able to provide offspring that implies the older and stronger individuals in your tribe will let you have full rights or do what you want. For all we know, you are still expected to do what they tell to you, except that you are pregnant as a bonus.
- DFHippie 7y ago
  > We don't know have detailed sociological studies of hunter-gatherers. But we do. We don't know today's hunter-gatherers are identical to those of 10,000 years ago or more, but we've got them and there have been many studies of them.