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USB-C is a train-wreck for those of us who work in electronics design. USB-C's chipset support isn't all that good, it seems like. With USB 3 type A, you prett

USB-C is a train-wreck for those of us who work in electronics design. USB-C's chipset support isn't all that good, it seems like. With USB 3 type A, you pretty-much just run your USB lines to the ports on your CPU. Simple, straightforward. Manufacturers are happy to do it, because it's dirt cheap and requires nothing except the connectors and maybe some ESD protection. USB-C is a different beast entirely. Just to use the USB 3 lanes, you need to put down a high-speed mux just to deal with both connector orientations. Want to support USB Power delivery (transmitting or receiving)? That'll be another set of chips to put onto the board. Plus software to deal with the PD negotiation. Want to support Displayport? That'll be _another_ mux chip. Plus more software to advertise the functionality. The cables are also much harder to manufacture, and this is reflected in their average price after you chop off one or two outliers. Is your item a USB host? A device? Does it accept or provide power over USB? Does it support Displayport? Thunderbolt? Analog audio? Something else entirely? There's no way to know from looking at the connector. And no standardized markings that I've ever seen.

BiteCode_dev 7y ago
I'm completely ok with it being complicated to design and cost 10 euros more if it delivers. And despite all its flaws, USBC does. It's small. It's reversible. I can charge all my devices on it: my samsung tablet, my oneplus phone, my logitech mouse, my jabra headphones, my switch and my XPS 13 laptop, which I can also dock to my screen/ethernet. It's amazing. So yes, I had to take the time to find the proper cable, and I bought a few before finding brands I can trust to work with all my machines... and not fry them. It sucks, but it will improve with time, like it did with early USB and HDMI (too many people forgot how terrible THAT was). It already has, in fact, improved a lot, and it will keep it up. Meanwhile, I have only one cable and one dongle in my bag that do everything. I don't even have to get them out most of the time. This is imperfect. This needs fixing. But this is better than what we had before. Way better.
- janlaureys 7y ago
  I'm soon switching a lot of things to USB-C. What brands of cables would you recommend ?
  - basch 7y ago
    something with Kevlar in it like powerline.
  - BiteCode_dev 7y ago
    I just use a MacBook charger and usb-c cable, even if i don't have any apple devices. The reason is that I move a lot and forget my chargers one or twice a year in a customer office, a hotel or at the airport. The MacBook pro charger is very expensive, but charges everything I have and I can buy it pretty much everywhere, including at the last minute in an airport. It's also rated "best cable on the planet" by Nathan K: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9dMDWqENiY2kgBJUu29f_TX8/pubhtml# https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9... Any cable recommended by Benson Leung or Nathan K will do, anyway. A good compilation of those: https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/wiki/officialguide/usbcinfo https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/wiki/officialguide/usbc...
  - lmm 7y ago
    Anker. They're consistently reliable, and accessories are their whole business, so a problem would hurt their reputation a lot more than one of the big hardware companies.
    - floatboth 7y ago
      Well, if you look at the spreadsheet linked below https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9dMDWqENiY2kgBJUu29f_TX8/pubhtml https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9... Anker did have one model of cable that was recalled because it was dangerous :)
  - bloopernova 7y ago
    Another vote for Anker, they're consistently better quality than the other "random character name" brands found on Amazon.
- dmos62 7y ago
  There's also a middle-ground that would have made people happier across the spectrum. Standard power cable, for phone, laptop, etc. Standard data cable, for your ereader, camera. Standard video-audio cable. I think it's a good principle to have that if the engineers suffer, that will run downhill on consumers too. I think every engineer can find examples of that.
  - cerberusss 7y ago
    USB-C allows me to hook up my laptop with one cable. Your middle-ground standard wouldn't.
    - dmos62 7y ago
      I probably misused the "across the spectrum" idiom. What I meant is that it would make developers much happier than USB-C and it would make consumers much happier than USB 3. My idea was that it's a more wholesome situation than content consumer and frustrated developer.
      - matz1 7y ago
        As a consumer I want one cable to do all of it. Sure, like anything else, it will be difficult and slow progress to get there. As developer you sould see it as challenge.
        dmos62 7y ago
        It's good that you know your ideal user-experience (developers are aware of it too), but the trade-offs will depend on what's happening on the developer's end, so dismissing developer difficulties is not conducive to a good consumer experience. Developer difficulty is a symptom of a more systemic problem, and it will usually affect the end-user through: higher-cost, lower-reliability, accumulation of technical debt, and/or resource-inefficiency.
        matz1 7y ago
jdc 7y ago
Standardized markings to indicate capabilities would be a big upgrade from the status quo.
mschuster91 7y ago
What's worse, while there are spec sheets with examples for the mux chips, good luck finding a datasheet with a full example including USB-C PD in source and sink capability, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt and "classic" USB. And don't get me started on Thunderbolt controllers themselves, Intel doesn't even release datasheets for these. I get that Intel may want to prevent people selling Thunderbolt stuff without certification etc. but this shitty behavior really sucks for advanced tinkerers willing to get their hands dirty on some modern technology. If someone does have an application example that includes all necessary chips including an USB3 controller, a Thunderbolt controller, a MUX chip for DisplayPort and a decent PD controller supporting source and sink operation mode, I'd be happy about any hints. Oh and if someone from the Raspberry Pi foundation reads this, please for the love of everything that's holy update the Compute Module and expose PCI-E there!
dangus 7y ago
Why should customers care about making electronics designers happy? Customers have wanted to charge, transfer data, and transfer display information on one cable. That’s what we want, and you can see that many folks are willing to pay for it. Everything dealing with electronics is complicated and expensive until one day it isn’t.
snagglegaggle 7y ago
One could see this as a push to incentivize the development of a very configurable analog front end for device to device communication. If it were intentional, that is.

BiteCode_dev 7y ago

I'm completely ok with it being complicated to design and cost 10 euros more if it delivers. And despite all its flaws, USBC does. It's small. It's reversible. I can charge all my devices on it: my samsung tablet, my oneplus phone, my logitech mouse, my jabra headphones, my switch and my XPS 13 laptop, which I can also dock to my screen/ethernet. It's amazing. So yes, I had to take the time to find the proper cable, and I bought a few before finding brands I can trust to work with all my machines... and not fry them. It sucks, but it will improve with time, like it did with early USB and HDMI (too many people forgot how terrible THAT was). It already has, in fact, improved a lot, and it will keep it up. Meanwhile, I have only one cable and one dongle in my bag that do everything. I don't even have to get them out most of the time. This is imperfect. This needs fixing. But this is better than what we had before. Way better.

janlaureys 7y ago
I'm soon switching a lot of things to USB-C. What brands of cables would you recommend ?
- basch 7y ago
  something with Kevlar in it like powerline.
- BiteCode_dev 7y ago
  I just use a MacBook charger and usb-c cable, even if i don't have any apple devices. The reason is that I move a lot and forget my chargers one or twice a year in a customer office, a hotel or at the airport. The MacBook pro charger is very expensive, but charges everything I have and I can buy it pretty much everywhere, including at the last minute in an airport. It's also rated "best cable on the planet" by Nathan K: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9dMDWqENiY2kgBJUu29f_TX8/pubhtml# https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9... Any cable recommended by Benson Leung or Nathan K will do, anyway. A good compilation of those: https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/wiki/officialguide/usbcinfo https://www.reddit.com/r/GooglePixel/wiki/officialguide/usbc...
- lmm 7y ago
  Anker. They're consistently reliable, and accessories are their whole business, so a problem would hurt their reputation a lot more than one of the big hardware companies.
  - floatboth 7y ago
    Well, if you look at the spreadsheet linked below https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9dMDWqENiY2kgBJUu29f_TX8/pubhtml https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vnpEXfo2HCGADdd9G2x9... Anker did have one model of cable that was recalled because it was dangerous :)
- bloopernova 7y ago
  Another vote for Anker, they're consistently better quality than the other "random character name" brands found on Amazon.
dmos62 7y ago
There's also a middle-ground that would have made people happier across the spectrum. Standard power cable, for phone, laptop, etc. Standard data cable, for your ereader, camera. Standard video-audio cable. I think it's a good principle to have that if the engineers suffer, that will run downhill on consumers too. I think every engineer can find examples of that.
- cerberusss 7y ago
  USB-C allows me to hook up my laptop with one cable. Your middle-ground standard wouldn't.
  - dmos62 7y ago
    I probably misused the "across the spectrum" idiom. What I meant is that it would make developers much happier than USB-C and it would make consumers much happier than USB 3. My idea was that it's a more wholesome situation than content consumer and frustrated developer.
    - matz1 7y ago
      As a consumer I want one cable to do all of it. Sure, like anything else, it will be difficult and slow progress to get there. As developer you sould see it as challenge.
      - dmos62 7y ago
        It's good that you know your ideal user-experience (developers are aware of it too), but the trade-offs will depend on what's happening on the developer's end, so dismissing developer difficulties is not conducive to a good consumer experience. Developer difficulty is a symptom of a more systemic problem, and it will usually affect the end-user through: higher-cost, lower-reliability, accumulation of technical debt, and/or resource-inefficiency.
        matz1 7y ago

jdc 7y ago

Standardized markings to indicate capabilities would be a big upgrade from the status quo.

mschuster91 7y ago

What's worse, while there are spec sheets with examples for the mux chips, good luck finding a datasheet with a full example including USB-C PD in source and sink capability, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt and "classic" USB. And don't get me started on Thunderbolt controllers themselves, Intel doesn't even release datasheets for these. I get that Intel may want to prevent people selling Thunderbolt stuff without certification etc. but this shitty behavior really sucks for advanced tinkerers willing to get their hands dirty on some modern technology. If someone does have an application example that includes all necessary chips including an USB3 controller, a Thunderbolt controller, a MUX chip for DisplayPort and a decent PD controller supporting source and sink operation mode, I'd be happy about any hints. Oh and if someone from the Raspberry Pi foundation reads this, please for the love of everything that's holy update the Compute Module and expose PCI-E there!

dangus 7y ago

Why should customers care about making electronics designers happy? Customers have wanted to charge, transfer data, and transfer display information on one cable. That’s what we want, and you can see that many folks are willing to pay for it. Everything dealing with electronics is complicated and expensive until one day it isn’t.

snagglegaggle 7y ago

One could see this as a push to incentivize the development of a very configurable analog front end for device to device communication. If it were intentional, that is.