4 ms·

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails, withholding stipend for several months and so on. It's a disaster and I never imagined myself in this situation. I hope things change soon.

musicale 7y ago
This isn't going to change. You should do everything in your power to get a better supervisor, particularly for your dissertation research. You're early enough in the process that starting a new project, or modifying your current project, is completely worth it to get a better supervisor who actually supports you and will help you graduate. Talk to other grad students to see what they think of their advisors. Also you should try to find other faculty (and possibly postdocs) to advise you who aren't your supervisor if at all possible, and try to form an informal group of grad students to meet periodically to discuss research and grad life in general. And remember it is a marathon not a race, so overworking is usually unproductive unless you are up against a strict paper deadline (even then it's unproductive but may be worth it in the short run.)
- pelario 7y ago
  This sound advice. I cannot emphasize enough how important is the supervisor in the PhD experience, IMO, the most relevant factor. So if this is the treatment you get even before starting... I would also say, yes, look for another place.
- montalbano 7y ago
  I just finished my PhD. My first half was with a supervisor similar to what OP described. Fortunately I was able to transfer halfway through to a much better supervisor. I have seen both sides, having a good supervisor makes a massive difference. Even so, now that I am finished, the emotional drain of the first two years and lack of time to properly recover has left me completely BURNT OUT. OP, please take the advice of musicale, it is EXACTLY RIGHT. I am a little dissapointed to find many comments here putting the responsibility on the (prospective) PhD student. I'm sure this is the case sometimes. In my case I was absolutely happy doing independent research at all times in my life apart from with this horrendous supervisor who, at all turns, made it difficult to do good science.
  - throwaway_shame 7y ago
    I am glad that you were able to get a better supervisor. Did you face any kind of retaliation from your first supervisor?
    - montalbano 7y ago
      Not in my case due to details I can't go into. But in general direct or indirect retaliation is a risk and is why it is so important for you to do something ASAP. I don't know all the details of your situation but based on what you said in OP it might be advisable to switch. The sooner you do the less time you might 'waste' in an unfruitful project and the less time and money the supervisor has invested in you, so they might be less likely to retaliate. Further, it also might be considered 'professionally embarrassing' for the supervisor if you ask to switch during the PhD. At the stage you are now you could probably change in a way that saves you hassle and the supervisors face by diplomatically posing the change as a mere change in 'academic interests', i.e. slightly different project with a favourable supervisor. Of course you should suss out the possible alternative supervisors first and try and meet them and their students to make sure they are actually favourable to your current prof. These are just the first points that come to mind, happy to answer other questions if you would like (see my gmail in profile).
      - throwaway_shame 7y ago
        Very valuable advice. Thank you!
- brnt 7y ago
  The difficulty is knowing who's a good supervisor. As a msc student, you may only know of their academic reputation, which has nothing to do with quality or attitude to supervision. In retrospect I was lucky, and my supervisors bio picture has him hanging in a hammock, which, if I had known, could have been exactly the indicator I should have looked for. Either way, try if you can, and don't hesitate to stop with the current supervisor if it's just not working for you. No reason to continue on an unhappy path. It's always worth choosing your own sanity.
- throwaway_shame 7y ago
  Very helpful advice. I am trying to extend my masters by another 8 months and work with other professors in the department to make the switch. Fingers crossed :)
frozenport 7y ago
The top AI labs don't widthold graduate student funding. Almost nobody does this, as funding is often required before taking students and reviewed on a semester basis (typically planning forms) , and the checks are obviously issued by the university.
ImaCake 7y ago
>I hope things change soon. They will not. I have seen what a bad supervisor does to his students and it is not good. If you insist on the madness of a PhD, at least find a supervisor willing to treat you as a human being.
hatmatrix 7y ago
> indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails Are you sure this is a deliberate strategy
- throwaway_shame 7y ago
  I don't claim this to be deliberate and I am sure my supervisor is good human being and it is nothing personal. Simultaneously I also think it is not difficult to see what effect this causes deliberate or not.
brnt 7y ago
It helps if you can let go of the top places. I've done a PhD at a subtop institute, less well known, and I made a rule of not working in the weekend/evening (unless it was my own initiative, which was rarely), and I had a blast. I'm doing a postdoc now at another subtop place, which will be the end of my academic career because getting tenure of course still requires more than average, which I'm happy to admit I am. Joing a top institute is starting training with olympians: most of us can't keep up, but that's fine. Join a local fitness club instead, and suddenly you can. You won't win medals, but you'll still learn a shit-ton, do good research and have fun.
- throwaway6734 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing this!
- asciident 7y ago
  Yes, so many people are obsessed with the top places, only applying to the most brand new institutions, and then wonder why they're not treated with gloves. If you have incredibly high expectations of the institution, the institution puts tremendous pressure on its faculty, and so the faculty will need to produce in a big way. Hence, you will either need to produce in a big way or they won't have time for you. So many people think they're too good to apply for a school like Ohio State or Boston University, but then themselves are not constantly performing at the highest world caliber.
kaybe 7y ago
The others are right, it is probably not going to change. From that short sentence it seems that your supervisor is doing a lot of things at once and you are low in the priority list. I don't think it's personal (unless you have clear evidence for the contrary). If you're not ok with that (some people prefer being able to work in peace) and you cannot change it (some profs are like cats, show them something interesting and you'll have more of their attention than you ever wanted) see if there is someone else around to help. Are there any postdocs or other seniors who could fill that hole? Also talk to the other PhD students and see what their impression of the supervisor is. It is very important that the supervisor/group and you are at least a decent fit. Think about what kind of working conditions and supervision you need, (and what would be harmful), and then consider if the match is good enough. (For example, do you want to be left alone or do you need closer mentoring? What kind of mentoring? Do you want to work with peers?) If in doubt about something major, you could also try to talk to the supervisor directly. The most important thing for your mental health is mostly not the research question but your research conditions. Please take care of yourself.
- throwaway_shame 7y ago
  Thanks for sharing your perspective. I definitely agree that it is not personal. I feel lucky for doing MS and not doing a PhD right off the bat which allowed me to find what works for me.
yummypaint 7y ago
You should really consider a different advisor. In my experience that is by far the #1 most important factor in how your experience will be. You will be putting yourself in their hands much more than you already have. It's entirely possible to have an enjoyable experience with someone who supports a healthy work life balance. Of course when crunch time hits there will be very long crazy days, but when that isnt happening a good advisor will give you space, let you work when and where you want, and not engage in toxic behavior.
77pt77 7y ago
As someone that went through that many years ago, all I regret is not having cut my losses earlier, even thought I cut them pretty early.
ISL 7y ago
Don't forget to value yourself. The relationship between you and your advisor is deeply personal, especially for you. It is important to periodically evaluate whether or not your situation is a good one. If it is not, it may be time to make a change. The structures of academia can lead to outcomes where good-intentioned people to take actions (or often, inactions) that are, in an absolute sense, abusive. When academia is good, it can be great, but is essential to recognize when things are not okay and take steps to make them better. Communication is often a great first step. A wise friend once passed on an aphorism that has been useful to me: "Hope is not a strategy."

musicale 7y ago

This isn't going to change. You should do everything in your power to get a better supervisor, particularly for your dissertation research. You're early enough in the process that starting a new project, or modifying your current project, is completely worth it to get a better supervisor who actually supports you and will help you graduate. Talk to other grad students to see what they think of their advisors. Also you should try to find other faculty (and possibly postdocs) to advise you who aren't your supervisor if at all possible, and try to form an informal group of grad students to meet periodically to discuss research and grad life in general. And remember it is a marathon not a race, so overworking is usually unproductive unless you are up against a strict paper deadline (even then it's unproductive but may be worth it in the short run.)

pelario 7y ago
This sound advice. I cannot emphasize enough how important is the supervisor in the PhD experience, IMO, the most relevant factor. So if this is the treatment you get even before starting... I would also say, yes, look for another place.
montalbano 7y ago
I just finished my PhD. My first half was with a supervisor similar to what OP described. Fortunately I was able to transfer halfway through to a much better supervisor. I have seen both sides, having a good supervisor makes a massive difference. Even so, now that I am finished, the emotional drain of the first two years and lack of time to properly recover has left me completely BURNT OUT. OP, please take the advice of musicale, it is EXACTLY RIGHT. I am a little dissapointed to find many comments here putting the responsibility on the (prospective) PhD student. I'm sure this is the case sometimes. In my case I was absolutely happy doing independent research at all times in my life apart from with this horrendous supervisor who, at all turns, made it difficult to do good science.
- throwaway_shame 7y ago
  I am glad that you were able to get a better supervisor. Did you face any kind of retaliation from your first supervisor?
  - montalbano 7y ago
    Not in my case due to details I can't go into. But in general direct or indirect retaliation is a risk and is why it is so important for you to do something ASAP. I don't know all the details of your situation but based on what you said in OP it might be advisable to switch. The sooner you do the less time you might 'waste' in an unfruitful project and the less time and money the supervisor has invested in you, so they might be less likely to retaliate. Further, it also might be considered 'professionally embarrassing' for the supervisor if you ask to switch during the PhD. At the stage you are now you could probably change in a way that saves you hassle and the supervisors face by diplomatically posing the change as a mere change in 'academic interests', i.e. slightly different project with a favourable supervisor. Of course you should suss out the possible alternative supervisors first and try and meet them and their students to make sure they are actually favourable to your current prof. These are just the first points that come to mind, happy to answer other questions if you would like (see my gmail in profile).
    - throwaway_shame 7y ago
      Very valuable advice. Thank you!
brnt 7y ago
The difficulty is knowing who's a good supervisor. As a msc student, you may only know of their academic reputation, which has nothing to do with quality or attitude to supervision. In retrospect I was lucky, and my supervisors bio picture has him hanging in a hammock, which, if I had known, could have been exactly the indicator I should have looked for. Either way, try if you can, and don't hesitate to stop with the current supervisor if it's just not working for you. No reason to continue on an unhappy path. It's always worth choosing your own sanity.
throwaway_shame 7y ago
Very helpful advice. I am trying to extend my masters by another 8 months and work with other professors in the department to make the switch. Fingers crossed :)

frozenport 7y ago

The top AI labs don't widthold graduate student funding. Almost nobody does this, as funding is often required before taking students and reviewed on a semester basis (typically planning forms) , and the checks are obviously issued by the university.

ImaCake 7y ago

>I hope things change soon. They will not. I have seen what a bad supervisor does to his students and it is not good. If you insist on the madness of a PhD, at least find a supervisor willing to treat you as a human being.

hatmatrix 7y ago

> indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails Are you sure this is a deliberate strategy

throwaway_shame 7y ago
I don't claim this to be deliberate and I am sure my supervisor is good human being and it is nothing personal. Simultaneously I also think it is not difficult to see what effect this causes deliberate or not.

brnt 7y ago

It helps if you can let go of the top places. I've done a PhD at a subtop institute, less well known, and I made a rule of not working in the weekend/evening (unless it was my own initiative, which was rarely), and I had a blast. I'm doing a postdoc now at another subtop place, which will be the end of my academic career because getting tenure of course still requires more than average, which I'm happy to admit I am. Joing a top institute is starting training with olympians: most of us can't keep up, but that's fine. Join a local fitness club instead, and suddenly you can. You won't win medals, but you'll still learn a shit-ton, do good research and have fun.

throwaway6734 7y ago
Thanks for sharing this!
asciident 7y ago
Yes, so many people are obsessed with the top places, only applying to the most brand new institutions, and then wonder why they're not treated with gloves. If you have incredibly high expectations of the institution, the institution puts tremendous pressure on its faculty, and so the faculty will need to produce in a big way. Hence, you will either need to produce in a big way or they won't have time for you. So many people think they're too good to apply for a school like Ohio State or Boston University, but then themselves are not constantly performing at the highest world caliber.

kaybe 7y ago

The others are right, it is probably not going to change. From that short sentence it seems that your supervisor is doing a lot of things at once and you are low in the priority list. I don't think it's personal (unless you have clear evidence for the contrary). If you're not ok with that (some people prefer being able to work in peace) and you cannot change it (some profs are like cats, show them something interesting and you'll have more of their attention than you ever wanted) see if there is someone else around to help. Are there any postdocs or other seniors who could fill that hole? Also talk to the other PhD students and see what their impression of the supervisor is. It is very important that the supervisor/group and you are at least a decent fit. Think about what kind of working conditions and supervision you need, (and what would be harmful), and then consider if the match is good enough. (For example, do you want to be left alone or do you need closer mentoring? What kind of mentoring? Do you want to work with peers?) If in doubt about something major, you could also try to talk to the supervisor directly. The most important thing for your mental health is mostly not the research question but your research conditions. Please take care of yourself.

throwaway_shame 7y ago
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I definitely agree that it is not personal. I feel lucky for doing MS and not doing a PhD right off the bat which allowed me to find what works for me.

yummypaint 7y ago

You should really consider a different advisor. In my experience that is by far the #1 most important factor in how your experience will be. You will be putting yourself in their hands much more than you already have. It's entirely possible to have an enjoyable experience with someone who supports a healthy work life balance. Of course when crunch time hits there will be very long crazy days, but when that isnt happening a good advisor will give you space, let you work when and where you want, and not engage in toxic behavior.

77pt77 7y ago

As someone that went through that many years ago, all I regret is not having cut my losses earlier, even thought I cut them pretty early.

ISL 7y ago

Don't forget to value yourself. The relationship between you and your advisor is deeply personal, especially for you. It is important to periodically evaluate whether or not your situation is a good one. If it is not, it may be time to make a change. The structures of academia can lead to outcomes where good-intentioned people to take actions (or often, inactions) that are, in an absolute sense, abusive. When academia is good, it can be great, but is essential to recognize when things are not okay and take steps to make them better. Communication is often a great first step. A wise friend once passed on an aphorism that has been useful to me: "Hope is not a strategy."