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I would urge you, or anyone who thinks that downvoting is toxic for this matter, to volunteer in moderating questions written by new users for a day or two. On

by KKPMW 7y ago

I would urge you, or anyone who thinks that downvoting is toxic for this matter, to volunteer in moderating questions written by new users for a day or two. Once you see a constant flood of "I made app, here my 1000 lines of code (screenshot), I get error, where bug?" that the moderators have to defend the site against - you might just change your opinion about the value of downvotes.

andrewstuart 7y ago
I'm not saying there should not be a mechanism for regulating that sort of stuff. BUT on StackOverflow it is entirely normal, even expected, that you post a well thought out and reasoned question and its instantly downvoted because, well, who knows why? Drive-by downvoting is simply negative. A different mechanism could be used for the sorts of issues you identify.
- jasode 7y ago
  >A different mechanism could be used for the sorts of issues you identify. Would the new proposed mechanism require more volunteer work or the same effort as now? Btw, many people forget that back in 2011, Jeff Atwood was concerned that there was too much crap and the community was not downvoting enough. Therefore, he removed the points penalty to encourage the community to aggressively downvote more: https://stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-...
- thrower123 7y ago
  Is this really the common behavior? I feel like I live in a different world... Maybe I do; I don't ask a ton of questions, and when I do they are usually on pretty small niche tags, but the last several times I've asked something, I've wound up with a friendly soul suggest something within an hour or two that's gotten me pointed in the right direction.
- triceratops 7y ago
  What if downvoting required leaving an anonymized comment?
- Ajedi32 7y ago
  Can you point to an example of a "well thought out and reasoned question" on SO that's at a negative score? In my experience, that just doesn't happen. Most questions sit at a score of 0, and those which do receive votes are almost always upvoted. (The data supports this[1].) Questions rarely end up with a negative score, and when they do it's usually because there are obvious problems with their formatting or content. (Usually low effort, off topic, or an obvious duplicate.) [1]: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1096887/question-score-frequency-whole-site#resultSets https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1096887/q...
- stinos 7y ago
  on StackOverflow it is entirely normal, even expected, that you post a well thought out and reasoned question and its instantly downvoted because, well, who knows why Hmm, not my experience, at all. Though I heard this more than once, so I see a couple of possible reasons (or combinations thereof): - depends on the community/tag; I've mainly asked questions tagged with the languages starting with a C, some git stuff and some more obscure things - depends on the poster's reputation points i.e. maybe there's a bias to not downvoting/closing questions asked by people with 10k+ points? - the questions were not actually well thought out/reasoned even though you think they are Any ideas?
jerrac 7y ago
Alternatively, maybe we could come up with a way to deal with those questions that is better than down voting. Let time, and lack of up votes, sink them? Have moderators hide them with a FRIENDLY "Hey, we've hidden your post because it doesn't meet 'these requirements', once you've edited, we'll review it and show it again." message. If they don't improve, keep it hidden, tell them to do better. If they still don't improve, delete it, and require any new questions they post to be moderated first. If another question ends up deleted, don't let them post any more. Basically, give feedback in a positive manner with the goal of getting that person to do better. It may seem like more work, but I think it would be much more rewarding than what I've seen on Stack Overflow and other support forums.
- KKPMW 7y ago
  What is wrong with downvotes? Without downvotes upvotes loose their meaning. The number of upvotes would turn into a proxy for the number of people who looked at the question. From my experience - big part of new users asking questions do not even care if they get any upvotes or downvotes, or if someone is friendly. They don't even bother to accept/upvote the answer when it's given. They simply want to get their question answered and then move on, forget their username and create a new account for the new question next time. A better system is surely possible. But my main message would be - please spend some time doing it all: 1) asking questions; 2) answering questions; 3) volunteering for moderation; before starting to think about how to change the site.
  - dkersten 7y ago
    > What is wrong with downvotes? They don't tell the person what they did wrong. Its incredibly frustrating to get downvoted and not have any idea why. For example, here on HN, I generally couldn't care less about what my score is, but when I write something based on my personal experience (ie something completely subjective from my life) and I get downvoted (it has happened!), I find find that incredibly frustrating because I don't understand why someone found my experience worthy of a downvote. I imagine its similar on SO. If you're new and don't yet know the finer points of the rules, getting downvoted without an explanation is a surefire way of turning that person off the site. > please spend some time doing it all: 1) asking questions; 2) answering questions; 3) volunteering for moderation I have. At least, I've done the review queue a ton of times.
TuringNYC 7y ago
>> I would urge you, or anyone who thinks that downvoting is toxic for this matter, to volunteer in moderating questions written by new users for a day or two. >> Once you see a constant flood of "I made app, here my 1000 lines of code (screenshot), I get error, where bug?" that the moderators have to defend the site against - you might just change your opinion about the value of downvotes. My favorite is always when they dont get a response and then get angry at the community -- "i asked three days ago, STILL NO ANSWER, ANSWER NOW"
- mark-r 7y ago
  In my experience, that reaction is very rare. Thankfully.
- reportgunner 7y ago
  Yeah or when they write the same thing in the comments. Then you ask them a question to get more specific info and they just reword the same info from the question again. Cherry on the top is when someone new comes in the comments and they yet again ask the same thing, I loved that.
eitland 7y ago
That can be solved by raising the bar to asking questions, can't it? Make accounts cost something: - limited number of invites per year for existing valuable members - small payment - hassle (send us a post card or something like that, a "proof of work for humans") Stack Overflow seems to want: 1. asking to be frictionless even for complete strangers 2. yet to be taken seriously when they continue to complain that this is going on.
hootbootscoot 7y ago
meh. leave it up. who cares. search engines. relevant results. if it's really that bad of a question, why are there 20 answers for it? of far greater concern are the outdated and incorrect answers with the coveted green check mark next to them. one sees that green check mark and believes all manner of drivel written next to it.

by KKPMW 7y ago

andrewstuart 7y ago

I'm not saying there should not be a mechanism for regulating that sort of stuff. BUT on StackOverflow it is entirely normal, even expected, that you post a well thought out and reasoned question and its instantly downvoted because, well, who knows why? Drive-by downvoting is simply negative. A different mechanism could be used for the sorts of issues you identify.

jasode 7y ago
>A different mechanism could be used for the sorts of issues you identify. Would the new proposed mechanism require more volunteer work or the same effort as now? Btw, many people forget that back in 2011, Jeff Atwood was concerned that there was too much crap and the community was not downvoting enough. Therefore, he removed the points penalty to encourage the community to aggressively downvote more: https://stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-not-sand/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2011/06/13/optimizing-for-pearls-...
thrower123 7y ago
Is this really the common behavior? I feel like I live in a different world... Maybe I do; I don't ask a ton of questions, and when I do they are usually on pretty small niche tags, but the last several times I've asked something, I've wound up with a friendly soul suggest something within an hour or two that's gotten me pointed in the right direction.
triceratops 7y ago
What if downvoting required leaving an anonymized comment?
Ajedi32 7y ago
Can you point to an example of a "well thought out and reasoned question" on SO that's at a negative score? In my experience, that just doesn't happen. Most questions sit at a score of 0, and those which do receive votes are almost always upvoted. (The data supports this[1].) Questions rarely end up with a negative score, and when they do it's usually because there are obvious problems with their formatting or content. (Usually low effort, off topic, or an obvious duplicate.) [1]: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1096887/question-score-frequency-whole-site#resultSets https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1096887/q...
stinos 7y ago
on StackOverflow it is entirely normal, even expected, that you post a well thought out and reasoned question and its instantly downvoted because, well, who knows why Hmm, not my experience, at all. Though I heard this more than once, so I see a couple of possible reasons (or combinations thereof): - depends on the community/tag; I've mainly asked questions tagged with the languages starting with a C, some git stuff and some more obscure things - depends on the poster's reputation points i.e. maybe there's a bias to not downvoting/closing questions asked by people with 10k+ points? - the questions were not actually well thought out/reasoned even though you think they are Any ideas?

jerrac 7y ago

Alternatively, maybe we could come up with a way to deal with those questions that is better than down voting. Let time, and lack of up votes, sink them? Have moderators hide them with a FRIENDLY "Hey, we've hidden your post because it doesn't meet 'these requirements', once you've edited, we'll review it and show it again." message. If they don't improve, keep it hidden, tell them to do better. If they still don't improve, delete it, and require any new questions they post to be moderated first. If another question ends up deleted, don't let them post any more. Basically, give feedback in a positive manner with the goal of getting that person to do better. It may seem like more work, but I think it would be much more rewarding than what I've seen on Stack Overflow and other support forums.

KKPMW 7y ago
What is wrong with downvotes? Without downvotes upvotes loose their meaning. The number of upvotes would turn into a proxy for the number of people who looked at the question. From my experience - big part of new users asking questions do not even care if they get any upvotes or downvotes, or if someone is friendly. They don't even bother to accept/upvote the answer when it's given. They simply want to get their question answered and then move on, forget their username and create a new account for the new question next time. A better system is surely possible. But my main message would be - please spend some time doing it all: 1) asking questions; 2) answering questions; 3) volunteering for moderation; before starting to think about how to change the site.
- dkersten 7y ago
  > What is wrong with downvotes? They don't tell the person what they did wrong. Its incredibly frustrating to get downvoted and not have any idea why. For example, here on HN, I generally couldn't care less about what my score is, but when I write something based on my personal experience (ie something completely subjective from my life) and I get downvoted (it has happened!), I find find that incredibly frustrating because I don't understand why someone found my experience worthy of a downvote. I imagine its similar on SO. If you're new and don't yet know the finer points of the rules, getting downvoted without an explanation is a surefire way of turning that person off the site. > please spend some time doing it all: 1) asking questions; 2) answering questions; 3) volunteering for moderation I have. At least, I've done the review queue a ton of times.

TuringNYC 7y ago

>> I would urge you, or anyone who thinks that downvoting is toxic for this matter, to volunteer in moderating questions written by new users for a day or two. >> Once you see a constant flood of "I made app, here my 1000 lines of code (screenshot), I get error, where bug?" that the moderators have to defend the site against - you might just change your opinion about the value of downvotes. My favorite is always when they dont get a response and then get angry at the community -- "i asked three days ago, STILL NO ANSWER, ANSWER NOW"

mark-r 7y ago
In my experience, that reaction is very rare. Thankfully.
reportgunner 7y ago
Yeah or when they write the same thing in the comments. Then you ask them a question to get more specific info and they just reword the same info from the question again. Cherry on the top is when someone new comes in the comments and they yet again ask the same thing, I loved that.

eitland 7y ago

That can be solved by raising the bar to asking questions, can't it? Make accounts cost something: - limited number of invites per year for existing valuable members - small payment - hassle (send us a post card or something like that, a "proof of work for humans") Stack Overflow seems to want: 1. asking to be frictionless even for complete strangers 2. yet to be taken seriously when they continue to complain that this is going on.

hootbootscoot 7y ago

meh. leave it up. who cares. search engines. relevant results. if it's really that bad of a question, why are there 20 answers for it? of far greater concern are the outdated and incorrect answers with the coveted green check mark next to them. one sees that green check mark and believes all manner of drivel written next to it.