9 ms·

Private Equity company acquires .org registry

300 points by bhartzer 7y ago

jbob2000 7y ago
Well, that’s the end of .org. Private equity just wants to collect rent, they’ll raise prices year after year just because.
- dvdhnt 7y ago
  Not sure why this is being downvoted, it's the truth. Rent seeking is a disease that stifles progress. I don't understand how the same people who rail against overly aggressive patent, DRM, and copyright protections can justify supporting rent seeking in the physical world.
shmerl 7y ago
Time to sunset it.
- russh 7y ago
  And remove it from the email whitelist.
JeremySecond 7y ago
Is there a reason any domain has to be in private hands? Other than allowing more rent-seeking.
- profmonocle 7y ago
  I believe that technically generic top level domains "belong" to ICANN, and the registry operators (who collect most of the money) are just contractors operating the infrastructure on behalf of ICANN. So PIR doesn't actually own .org, ICANN could find a new contractor if they abuse their power. Of course, that's in theory. In reality ICANN's contracts are very controversial, and there have been plenty of accusations of corruption. Honestly, I don't see why the GTLDs couldn't be operated by a non-profit. They could charge as much as necessary to maintain the extremely high availability the service requires without needing to enrich any shareholders.
tehjoker 7y ago
Definitely a case of capital being earned and not a power differential being used to rip off the public writ large /sarcasm
danvoell 7y ago
Yikes. F This. "ICANN made this deal much more valuable by removing all price controls on .org." Just thinking of all the Non Profits who have .Org and are going to get conned out of fees in the name of capitalism. Obviously making price increase assumptions here but this sucks. Is there anyway to stop this?
- turc1656 7y ago
  Doubt it. Looks like a done deal. I think either the government or a collective of citizens would have to sue on antitrust grounds, which seems reasonable considering they control the entire .org TLD. But other than that, don't see much of a way. And considering it was controlled entirely by a single entity before, nothing has really changed except the structure of the entity (profit vs non-profit). Technically speaking, I don't think there is a requirement to prove consumer harm from antitrust activity, but I could be wrong. Which would, in theory, make such a case easier to win. Someone who knows a lot more than me on this once told me that requirement was left out of the antitrust laws because it was difficult to prove and there doesn't actually need to be harm to the consumer for their to be harm in general (meaning at least to other competitors). For example, a company can subsidize losses in one line of business with profits from another and keep prices reasonable/competitive in both areas while simultaneously stifling competition in the line of business that's losing money. Consumers still receive a good price but the harm is to the competition, which will cause company bankruptcies down the line and have longer term consequences. It also creates a barrier to entry for any prospective competitors. I think this was the real-world scenario that was used to leave out a requirement of proof of consumer harm. In fact, I also believe they don't even have to technically succeed they just need to merely attempt to monopolize something to be guilty of a felony. But again, since it's just changing hands from one entity to another, that might not fly.
  - SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
    Imagine if they raise prices exponentially for organizations they don't like, imagine if like the aclu or eef can't renew their .org because those organizations run counter to their interests.
aaomidi 7y ago
How...is this even allowed? Do people like us not get any say in this? Fuck the ICANN.
- xylol 7y ago
  To be fair, you seem to be quite explicit.
  - aaomidi 7y ago
    Yes because I feel like I was fucked with. Of course I'm mad. Especially if they remove the pricing protections it might price me out of owning my own domain.
- q3k 7y ago
  Indeed. ICANN has lost nearly all my trust for the past couple of years.
jdkee 7y ago
Does anyone know what policy at ICANN justifies this action? My understanding was that certain TLDs are historically non-commercial and this free from commercial constraints on registration.
- Gabrielfair 7y ago
  Adding to this, does anyone know if there is a procedure in place to submit a protest of an ICANN decision? There has to be a way for the public to issue a request for re-evaluation, right?
sundbry 7y ago
fuck you ICANN.
gorgoiler 7y ago
What’s the most equitable TLD for now, and for the future?
- teddyh 7y ago
  .onion
- trpc 7y ago
  .sucks
  - gorgoiler 7y ago
    That’s actually a pretty interesting example — is this some sort of stick-it-to-the-man anti-corporation performance art? “[...] lawyers are infuriated that the dot-sucks registry was charging trademark holders $2500 for domains and everyone else $10.“ “The .sucks domain registrar has been described as "predatory, exploitive and coercive" by the Intellectual Property Constituency that advises the ICANN board. When the .sucks registry announced their pricing model, "most brand owners were upset and felt like they were being penalized by having to pay more to protect their brands." Because of the low utility of the ".sucks" domain, most fees come from "Brand Protection" customers registering their trademarks to prevent domains being registered.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN#.sucks_domain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN#.sucks_domain It feels like many of the new TLDs are a shakedown on brands to force them to land-grab their trademarks. At least .SUCKS is honest about it? EDIT: oh my, this is juicy! Some real internet counter culture. This excerpt from a letter of complaint from the .SUCKS registry to ICANN: “[...] ICANN appears concerned that registrations on the .SUCKS registry will be used to aggregate uncomplimentary commentary about companies and products--the very purpose for the registry that Vox Populi identified in the application it submitted to ICANN, and that ICANN approved.” http://www.circleid.com/posts/20150511_vox_populi_registry_says_enough_about_sucks_accusations/ http://www.circleid.com/posts/20150511_vox_populi_registry_s... EDIT2: I am reminded of some more domain history here, regarding Diageo seizing the Guinness-Sucks.com domain names (also a nice blast from the past: who remembers the Your Rights Online section of SlashDot?) https://m.slashdot.org/story/14513 https://m.slashdot.org/story/14513 https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d2000-0996.html https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d200...
nslocum 7y ago
This is very troubling. I can't imagine why this would be done if they had good intentions. Makes me want to check their financials. Here's their most recent public tax forms which includes revenue, executive pay, board member info, and more PIR: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/331025119/201841569349300514/IRS990 https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/331... ICANN: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/fy18-irs-tax-form-990-return-organization-exempt-income-tax-27may19-en.pdf https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/fy18-irs-tax-for... Looks like they're paid quite generously.
- spir 7y ago
  We should support public goods like the Ethereum Name Service https://ens.domains/ https://ens.domains/ You can register a domain at https://app.ens.domains/ https://app.ens.domains/
  - riffic 7y ago
    alternative DNS roots have been a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
  - p4bl0 7y ago
    OpenNIC has been up for almost 20 years now: https://www.opennic.org/ https://www.opennic.org/
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Very - I recall around 2000 the registry .coop I worked for was one of the bidders for .org back then. There where some very sketchy bidders one of whom seemed to want to convert to be for only a narrow US specific definition of non profit, The Red Cross would have been bared from having a .org for example. There is a reason that ICANT is hated by a lot of those who have to deal with it.
SanchoPanda 7y ago
First thought: Sketchy. Second thought: Actually I hope that they do raise prices. Sucks for the squatters and the legacy owners, but the squatters more so given how many more names they own.
- einpoklum 7y ago
  Squatting can be dealt with differently, if there was the will for doing so. You don't need a scythe to pluck a leaf.
  - SanchoPanda 7y ago
    I'm increasingly unconvinced that anything but an economic incentive like this can. Like the risk this appears to present anyway. As an aside I love that expression, I have not heard it before and it's great.
  - sytelus 7y ago
    Preventing squatting is a fundamentally unsolved problem which I'm afraid can't be just "dealt with differently". If you want to allow anyone to own any domain and treat domain as personal property then squatting is actually unsolvable. Various possible measures necessarily limit freedom either by raising prices or quantity or property rights (i.e. transferability or usage). If you have any other ideas, please do let everyone know.
- q3k 7y ago
  > Second thought: Actually I hope that they do raise prices. Can't wait for that price hike for my ~VIP~ 3-letter dot org domain that I've been actively using for 11 years!
  - SanchoPanda 7y ago
    That's kind of the thing though, I want one as well. If you didn't get one 11 years ago you have been out of luck since then.
chirau 7y ago
Doesn't Craigslist have an .org as well?
ted0 7y ago
I work at Namecheap and we've been vocal about ICANN's decision to lift .org price caps. Happy to answer any questions from an industry-insider perspective. P.S. Only upvoting for exposure, not endorsing the acquisition.
- drenvuk 7y ago
  Worst case, 1. How does this affect renewals in the near future and further down the line for select companies and more generally? 2. How does this affect new registrations in the near future and more generally? 3. Why are newer tlds more expensive for specific domain names? 4. How do we prevent these registries from becoming overpowered landlords?
  - ted0 7y ago
    The registries control the costs for us so with no price caps, .org (which sets the precedent for .com) could increase the prices on new registrations and renewals as much as they want basically. The only thing we can do is continue to be vocal as partners and consumers: https://www.namecheap.com/blog/ensuring-icann-keep-domain-prices-in-check/ https://www.namecheap.com/blog/ensuring-icann-keep-domain-pr...
- nroets 7y ago
  Are there any TLDs where the management are elected by the domain holders ? The real world analogy I can think is HOA where the association (body corporate) is run by trustees/directors who are elected by the property owners. The association is incorporated as a non profit.
  - ta999999171 7y ago
    .onion
  - ted0 7y ago
    No there is no registry "coop" afaik but this would be very cool. Maybe in the next round of TLD applications?
ajnin 7y ago
PE firm appoints former ICANN executives to top positions. ICANN lifts price caps on .org registry. PE firm acquires .org registry. ICANN executives acquire stakes in PE firm. I don't know how this kind of behaviour is qualified legally. Probably something like "free market capitalism". But on a personal level this feels just disgusting and corrupt. Things like the .org registry that are unique and as such cannot be subject to competition should be controlled by a public entity in the common interest. I say that as a long-time owner (or rather renter) of a personal .org domain.
- Iv 7y ago
  I feel that's something the EFF could sue against
kjs3 7y ago
Time to wind down all the .org domains of more than trivial import.
Iv 7y ago
Time to fork ICANN. We knew this day would come, it is time for a DNS schism.
- ohazi 7y ago
  There's no absolute law that icann will always be the one true registry. It's mostly convention, inertia, and an expectation that they won't try to pull any shenanigans. But I'm seeing an awful lot of shenanigans lately... Remember when the browser vendors decided to make an example out of Symmantec by revoking their root CA after repeated bad behavior? At the end of the day, it's a bunch of private equity weenies who paid a lot of money for a piece of paper, vs. the engineers who actually control which piece of paper everyone's computer looks at. We'd have to be willing to stare down a lot of angry people, but we could absolutely win this fight if we really wanted to.
rswail 7y ago
So I've been trying to buy my-name.org for years, but it's held by some domain squatter. No idea where or why they are holding it and paying for renewals for at least the last 15 years. Maybe now they'll think it's cost-prohibitive? It expires next year, any idea on how to buy a domain these days?
Mengkudulangsat 7y ago
On an unrelated note, I've been dying for .sea TLD for a long time now (for Southeast-Asia). Reckon many unicorns wanting to appear "regional" would love this too. Unfortunately, it's owned by the Principality of Sealand... an offshore platform.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Why? These regional vanity TLD's don't have are real day to day use
marmot777 7y ago
Does this mean non profit organizations will end up paying more for domain names? That seems sketchy.

300 points by bhartzer 7y ago

jbob2000 7y ago

Well, that’s the end of .org. Private equity just wants to collect rent, they’ll raise prices year after year just because.

dvdhnt 7y ago
Not sure why this is being downvoted, it's the truth. Rent seeking is a disease that stifles progress. I don't understand how the same people who rail against overly aggressive patent, DRM, and copyright protections can justify supporting rent seeking in the physical world.

shmerl 7y ago

Time to sunset it.

russh 7y ago
And remove it from the email whitelist.

JeremySecond 7y ago

Is there a reason any domain has to be in private hands? Other than allowing more rent-seeking.

profmonocle 7y ago
I believe that technically generic top level domains "belong" to ICANN, and the registry operators (who collect most of the money) are just contractors operating the infrastructure on behalf of ICANN. So PIR doesn't actually own .org, ICANN could find a new contractor if they abuse their power. Of course, that's in theory. In reality ICANN's contracts are very controversial, and there have been plenty of accusations of corruption. Honestly, I don't see why the GTLDs couldn't be operated by a non-profit. They could charge as much as necessary to maintain the extremely high availability the service requires without needing to enrich any shareholders.

tehjoker 7y ago

Definitely a case of capital being earned and not a power differential being used to rip off the public writ large /sarcasm

danvoell 7y ago

Yikes. F This. "ICANN made this deal much more valuable by removing all price controls on .org." Just thinking of all the Non Profits who have .Org and are going to get conned out of fees in the name of capitalism. Obviously making price increase assumptions here but this sucks. Is there anyway to stop this?

turc1656 7y ago
Doubt it. Looks like a done deal. I think either the government or a collective of citizens would have to sue on antitrust grounds, which seems reasonable considering they control the entire .org TLD. But other than that, don't see much of a way. And considering it was controlled entirely by a single entity before, nothing has really changed except the structure of the entity (profit vs non-profit). Technically speaking, I don't think there is a requirement to prove consumer harm from antitrust activity, but I could be wrong. Which would, in theory, make such a case easier to win. Someone who knows a lot more than me on this once told me that requirement was left out of the antitrust laws because it was difficult to prove and there doesn't actually need to be harm to the consumer for their to be harm in general (meaning at least to other competitors). For example, a company can subsidize losses in one line of business with profits from another and keep prices reasonable/competitive in both areas while simultaneously stifling competition in the line of business that's losing money. Consumers still receive a good price but the harm is to the competition, which will cause company bankruptcies down the line and have longer term consequences. It also creates a barrier to entry for any prospective competitors. I think this was the real-world scenario that was used to leave out a requirement of proof of consumer harm. In fact, I also believe they don't even have to technically succeed they just need to merely attempt to monopolize something to be guilty of a felony. But again, since it's just changing hands from one entity to another, that might not fly.
- SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
  Imagine if they raise prices exponentially for organizations they don't like, imagine if like the aclu or eef can't renew their .org because those organizations run counter to their interests.

aaomidi 7y ago

How...is this even allowed? Do people like us not get any say in this? Fuck the ICANN.

xylol 7y ago
To be fair, you seem to be quite explicit.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  Yes because I feel like I was fucked with. Of course I'm mad. Especially if they remove the pricing protections it might price me out of owning my own domain.
q3k 7y ago
Indeed. ICANN has lost nearly all my trust for the past couple of years.

jdkee 7y ago

Does anyone know what policy at ICANN justifies this action? My understanding was that certain TLDs are historically non-commercial and this free from commercial constraints on registration.

Gabrielfair 7y ago
Adding to this, does anyone know if there is a procedure in place to submit a protest of an ICANN decision? There has to be a way for the public to issue a request for re-evaluation, right?

sundbry 7y ago

fuck you ICANN.

gorgoiler 7y ago

What’s the most equitable TLD for now, and for the future?

teddyh 7y ago
.onion
trpc 7y ago
.sucks
- gorgoiler 7y ago
  That’s actually a pretty interesting example — is this some sort of stick-it-to-the-man anti-corporation performance art? “[...] lawyers are infuriated that the dot-sucks registry was charging trademark holders $2500 for domains and everyone else $10.“ “The .sucks domain registrar has been described as "predatory, exploitive and coercive" by the Intellectual Property Constituency that advises the ICANN board. When the .sucks registry announced their pricing model, "most brand owners were upset and felt like they were being penalized by having to pay more to protect their brands." Because of the low utility of the ".sucks" domain, most fees come from "Brand Protection" customers registering their trademarks to prevent domains being registered.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN#.sucks_domain https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICANN#.sucks_domain It feels like many of the new TLDs are a shakedown on brands to force them to land-grab their trademarks. At least .SUCKS is honest about it? EDIT: oh my, this is juicy! Some real internet counter culture. This excerpt from a letter of complaint from the .SUCKS registry to ICANN: “[...] ICANN appears concerned that registrations on the .SUCKS registry will be used to aggregate uncomplimentary commentary about companies and products--the very purpose for the registry that Vox Populi identified in the application it submitted to ICANN, and that ICANN approved.” http://www.circleid.com/posts/20150511_vox_populi_registry_says_enough_about_sucks_accusations/ http://www.circleid.com/posts/20150511_vox_populi_registry_s... EDIT2: I am reminded of some more domain history here, regarding Diageo seizing the Guinness-Sucks.com domain names (also a nice blast from the past: who remembers the Your Rights Online section of SlashDot?) https://m.slashdot.org/story/14513 https://m.slashdot.org/story/14513 https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d2000-0996.html https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d200...

nslocum 7y ago

This is very troubling. I can't imagine why this would be done if they had good intentions. Makes me want to check their financials. Here's their most recent public tax forms which includes revenue, executive pay, board member info, and more PIR: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/331025119/201841569349300514/IRS990 https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/331... ICANN: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/fy18-irs-tax-form-990-return-organization-exempt-income-tax-27may19-en.pdf https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/fy18-irs-tax-for... Looks like they're paid quite generously.

spir 7y ago
We should support public goods like the Ethereum Name Service https://ens.domains/ https://ens.domains/ You can register a domain at https://app.ens.domains/ https://app.ens.domains/
- riffic 7y ago
  alternative DNS roots have been a thing for a while: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_DNS_root
- p4bl0 7y ago
  OpenNIC has been up for almost 20 years now: https://www.opennic.org/ https://www.opennic.org/
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Very - I recall around 2000 the registry .coop I worked for was one of the bidders for .org back then. There where some very sketchy bidders one of whom seemed to want to convert to be for only a narrow US specific definition of non profit, The Red Cross would have been bared from having a .org for example. There is a reason that ICANT is hated by a lot of those who have to deal with it.

SanchoPanda 7y ago

First thought: Sketchy. Second thought: Actually I hope that they do raise prices. Sucks for the squatters and the legacy owners, but the squatters more so given how many more names they own.

einpoklum 7y ago
Squatting can be dealt with differently, if there was the will for doing so. You don't need a scythe to pluck a leaf.
- SanchoPanda 7y ago
  I'm increasingly unconvinced that anything but an economic incentive like this can. Like the risk this appears to present anyway. As an aside I love that expression, I have not heard it before and it's great.
- sytelus 7y ago
  Preventing squatting is a fundamentally unsolved problem which I'm afraid can't be just "dealt with differently". If you want to allow anyone to own any domain and treat domain as personal property then squatting is actually unsolvable. Various possible measures necessarily limit freedom either by raising prices or quantity or property rights (i.e. transferability or usage). If you have any other ideas, please do let everyone know.
q3k 7y ago
> Second thought: Actually I hope that they do raise prices. Can't wait for that price hike for my ~VIP~ 3-letter dot org domain that I've been actively using for 11 years!
- SanchoPanda 7y ago
  That's kind of the thing though, I want one as well. If you didn't get one 11 years ago you have been out of luck since then.

chirau 7y ago

Doesn't Craigslist have an .org as well?

ted0 7y ago

I work at Namecheap and we've been vocal about ICANN's decision to lift .org price caps. Happy to answer any questions from an industry-insider perspective. P.S. Only upvoting for exposure, not endorsing the acquisition.

drenvuk 7y ago
Worst case, 1. How does this affect renewals in the near future and further down the line for select companies and more generally? 2. How does this affect new registrations in the near future and more generally? 3. Why are newer tlds more expensive for specific domain names? 4. How do we prevent these registries from becoming overpowered landlords?
- ted0 7y ago
  The registries control the costs for us so with no price caps, .org (which sets the precedent for .com) could increase the prices on new registrations and renewals as much as they want basically. The only thing we can do is continue to be vocal as partners and consumers: https://www.namecheap.com/blog/ensuring-icann-keep-domain-prices-in-check/ https://www.namecheap.com/blog/ensuring-icann-keep-domain-pr...
nroets 7y ago
Are there any TLDs where the management are elected by the domain holders ? The real world analogy I can think is HOA where the association (body corporate) is run by trustees/directors who are elected by the property owners. The association is incorporated as a non profit.
- ta999999171 7y ago
  .onion
- ted0 7y ago
  No there is no registry "coop" afaik but this would be very cool. Maybe in the next round of TLD applications?

ajnin 7y ago

PE firm appoints former ICANN executives to top positions. ICANN lifts price caps on .org registry. PE firm acquires .org registry. ICANN executives acquire stakes in PE firm. I don't know how this kind of behaviour is qualified legally. Probably something like "free market capitalism". But on a personal level this feels just disgusting and corrupt. Things like the .org registry that are unique and as such cannot be subject to competition should be controlled by a public entity in the common interest. I say that as a long-time owner (or rather renter) of a personal .org domain.

Iv 7y ago
I feel that's something the EFF could sue against

kjs3 7y ago

Time to wind down all the .org domains of more than trivial import.

Iv 7y ago

Time to fork ICANN. We knew this day would come, it is time for a DNS schism.

ohazi 7y ago
There's no absolute law that icann will always be the one true registry. It's mostly convention, inertia, and an expectation that they won't try to pull any shenanigans. But I'm seeing an awful lot of shenanigans lately... Remember when the browser vendors decided to make an example out of Symmantec by revoking their root CA after repeated bad behavior? At the end of the day, it's a bunch of private equity weenies who paid a lot of money for a piece of paper, vs. the engineers who actually control which piece of paper everyone's computer looks at. We'd have to be willing to stare down a lot of angry people, but we could absolutely win this fight if we really wanted to.

rswail 7y ago

So I've been trying to buy my-name.org for years, but it's held by some domain squatter. No idea where or why they are holding it and paying for renewals for at least the last 15 years. Maybe now they'll think it's cost-prohibitive? It expires next year, any idea on how to buy a domain these days?

Mengkudulangsat 7y ago

On an unrelated note, I've been dying for .sea TLD for a long time now (for Southeast-Asia). Reckon many unicorns wanting to appear "regional" would love this too. Unfortunately, it's owned by the Principality of Sealand... an offshore platform.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
Why? These regional vanity TLD's don't have are real day to day use

marmot777 7y ago

Does this mean non profit organizations will end up paying more for domain names? That seems sketchy.