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> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... would you agree with this change to your description?: "Yes, you could get [better] hardware

> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... would you agree with this change to your description?: "Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."

Klonoar 7y ago
Not really, "better" hardware is subjective in a laptop. For all the complaining people do, Apple is very good about ensuring that the hardware in their machines works as expected and hits a solid baseline performance level for given tasks.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Except for the keyboard fiasco, obviously
  - theklr 7y ago
    Anecdotes ≠ fact
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      When something rises to the level of a recall, especially for Apple (who denied that logic board issues were an issue on two separate models of MBP for me for months before issuing recalls), it rises a bit beyond "anecdote".
      - theklr 7y ago
        I may have not been verbose in the first post, but it was intended to be less about the technical and more about how there's this weird demand culture just because we know a couple people who have a similar issue.
        wlesieutre 7y ago
        Slightly larger anecdata then: I have a group chat with some friends where we were discussing the 16" MBP announcement this morning. One computer out of six has (so far) gotten by with a reliably performing keyboard. Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably. But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store. For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-surely-worse-than-apple-thinks/ https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su... Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards. Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again. EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily. His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
    - computerex 7y ago
      The butterfly keyboard had design flaws. This is a well known and well documented fact. There is literally an Apple keyboard repair program for the butterfly keyboard, and this new MacBook pro uses a different keyboard design altogether.
aequitas 7y ago
I wouldn't. Maybe on pure specs, yes. But there is just no substitute for me for the trackpads Apple builds into their laptops. And the overall quality and longevity of the devices. I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable).
- mcv 7y ago
  My old Macbook Pro from 2011 just broke. But that's certainly a respectable lifespan. I never replaced it because no new Macbook excited me like that one: they were increasingly hard to maintain, glued components, no 17 inch screen anymore, and keyboards kept getting worse. When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad. This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
  - aequitas 7y ago
    I was afraid of having to go that path when Apple would continue with their direction in pro hardware. I was only allowed to use a Linux laptop (Dell) in my previous job and even with how customizable Linux is I just could never get comfortable with it.
- FpUser 7y ago
  " I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable)." Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose. Hardware problems during last 20 years: 3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows. 1 Video card from nVidia died. 1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm. Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.
weberc2 7y ago
If that’s true, I haven’t found it when I’ve shopped for a laptop to install Linux onto. This wasn’t always the case, but right around the time of Windows 8 when everything needed a touchscreen and chromebooks were eating the low end of the market, good affordable hardware seemingly disappeared. I would have to spend $1500 to get something in the same ballpark as an entry level MacBook and it would still have profoundly terrible touchpad (whether running Linux or Windows, it never mattered), a mediocre keyboard, a plastic body, and noisy fans. Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.
- computerex 7y ago
  There is a lot of competition in the laptop space now. Apple no longer produces hands down the best notebooks in terms of hardware. The touchpad on the new Lenovo/Dell laptops have gotten very very good. Same goes for screen quality.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Good to know. I'll have to check them out. My ~2015 Lenovo touchpad is utterly abysmal.

> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... would you agree with this change to your description?: "Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."

Klonoar 7y ago

Not really, "better" hardware is subjective in a laptop. For all the complaining people do, Apple is very good about ensuring that the hardware in their machines works as expected and hits a solid baseline performance level for given tasks.

wlesieutre 7y ago
Except for the keyboard fiasco, obviously
- theklr 7y ago
  Anecdotes ≠ fact
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    When something rises to the level of a recall, especially for Apple (who denied that logic board issues were an issue on two separate models of MBP for me for months before issuing recalls), it rises a bit beyond "anecdote".
    - theklr 7y ago
      I may have not been verbose in the first post, but it was intended to be less about the technical and more about how there's this weird demand culture just because we know a couple people who have a similar issue.
      - wlesieutre 7y ago
        Slightly larger anecdata then: I have a group chat with some friends where we were discussing the 16" MBP announcement this morning. One computer out of six has (so far) gotten by with a reliably performing keyboard. Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably. But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store. For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-surely-worse-than-apple-thinks/ https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su... Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards. Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again. EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily. His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
  - computerex 7y ago
    The butterfly keyboard had design flaws. This is a well known and well documented fact. There is literally an Apple keyboard repair program for the butterfly keyboard, and this new MacBook pro uses a different keyboard design altogether.

aequitas 7y ago

I wouldn't. Maybe on pure specs, yes. But there is just no substitute for me for the trackpads Apple builds into their laptops. And the overall quality and longevity of the devices. I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable).

mcv 7y ago
My old Macbook Pro from 2011 just broke. But that's certainly a respectable lifespan. I never replaced it because no new Macbook excited me like that one: they were increasingly hard to maintain, glued components, no 17 inch screen anymore, and keyboards kept getting worse. When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad. This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
- aequitas 7y ago
  I was afraid of having to go that path when Apple would continue with their direction in pro hardware. I was only allowed to use a Linux laptop (Dell) in my previous job and even with how customizable Linux is I just could never get comfortable with it.
FpUser 7y ago
" I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable)." Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose. Hardware problems during last 20 years: 3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows. 1 Video card from nVidia died. 1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm. Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.

weberc2 7y ago

If that’s true, I haven’t found it when I’ve shopped for a laptop to install Linux onto. This wasn’t always the case, but right around the time of Windows 8 when everything needed a touchscreen and chromebooks were eating the low end of the market, good affordable hardware seemingly disappeared. I would have to spend $1500 to get something in the same ballpark as an entry level MacBook and it would still have profoundly terrible touchpad (whether running Linux or Windows, it never mattered), a mediocre keyboard, a plastic body, and noisy fans. Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.

computerex 7y ago
There is a lot of competition in the laptop space now. Apple no longer produces hands down the best notebooks in terms of hardware. The touchpad on the new Lenovo/Dell laptops have gotten very very good. Same goes for screen quality.
- weberc2 7y ago
  Good to know. I'll have to check them out. My ~2015 Lenovo touchpad is utterly abysmal.