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The other brands don't have macOS. Running a Mac isn't just hardware. People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get che

The other brands don't have macOS. Running a Mac isn't just hardware. People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS. Hackintoshes need not apply here.

canuckintime 7y ago
> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... would you agree with this change to your description?: "Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."
- Klonoar 7y ago
  Not really, "better" hardware is subjective in a laptop. For all the complaining people do, Apple is very good about ensuring that the hardware in their machines works as expected and hits a solid baseline performance level for given tasks.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    Except for the keyboard fiasco, obviously
    - theklr 7y ago
      Anecdotes ≠ fact
      - FireBeyond 7y ago
        When something rises to the level of a recall, especially for Apple (who denied that logic board issues were an issue on two separate models of MBP for me for months before issuing recalls), it rises a bit beyond "anecdote".
        theklr 7y ago
        I may have not been verbose in the first post, but it was intended to be less about the technical and more about how there's this weird demand culture just because we know a couple people who have a similar issue.
        wlesieutre 7y ago
        Slightly larger anecdata then: I have a group chat with some friends where we were discussing the 16" MBP announcement this morning. One computer out of six has (so far) gotten by with a reliably performing keyboard. Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably. But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store. For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-surely-worse-than-apple-thinks/ https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su... Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards. Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again. EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily. His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
      - computerex 7y ago
        The butterfly keyboard had design flaws. This is a well known and well documented fact. There is literally an Apple keyboard repair program for the butterfly keyboard, and this new MacBook pro uses a different keyboard design altogether.
- aequitas 7y ago
  I wouldn't. Maybe on pure specs, yes. But there is just no substitute for me for the trackpads Apple builds into their laptops. And the overall quality and longevity of the devices. I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable).
  - mcv 7y ago
    My old Macbook Pro from 2011 just broke. But that's certainly a respectable lifespan. I never replaced it because no new Macbook excited me like that one: they were increasingly hard to maintain, glued components, no 17 inch screen anymore, and keyboards kept getting worse. When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad. This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
    - aequitas 7y ago
      I was afraid of having to go that path when Apple would continue with their direction in pro hardware. I was only allowed to use a Linux laptop (Dell) in my previous job and even with how customizable Linux is I just could never get comfortable with it.
  - FpUser 7y ago
    " I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable)." Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose. Hardware problems during last 20 years: 3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows. 1 Video card from nVidia died. 1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm. Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.
- weberc2 7y ago
  If that’s true, I haven’t found it when I’ve shopped for a laptop to install Linux onto. This wasn’t always the case, but right around the time of Windows 8 when everything needed a touchscreen and chromebooks were eating the low end of the market, good affordable hardware seemingly disappeared. I would have to spend $1500 to get something in the same ballpark as an entry level MacBook and it would still have profoundly terrible touchpad (whether running Linux or Windows, it never mattered), a mediocre keyboard, a plastic body, and noisy fans. Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.
  - computerex 7y ago
    There is a lot of competition in the laptop space now. Apple no longer produces hands down the best notebooks in terms of hardware. The touchpad on the new Lenovo/Dell laptops have gotten very very good. Same goes for screen quality.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      Good to know. I'll have to check them out. My ~2015 Lenovo touchpad is utterly abysmal.
mcv 7y ago
And that's the big thing that keeps surprising me: that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it. Everybody seems content saddling their hardware with Windows. Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled garden.
- IMTDb 7y ago
  > that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it That would be System 76 https://system76.com/laptops/adder https://system76.com/laptops/adder with their pop OS linux distro https://system76.com/pop https://system76.com/pop
  - kitsunesoba 7y ago
    PopOS is great but I think system76 needs to design their laptops from scratch instead of relabeling Clevo laptops if they’re serious about challenging Apple. Their laptops have the specs, but the fit and finish is just not there.
    - Finnucane 7y ago
      I have a Clevo laptop (a few years old now) and even at the time, it was not exactly state of the art in terms of weight, battery life, etc. It's proven to be a fairly tough beast (even having fallen off my bike and lived). It is, unlike many new laptops, relatively easy to open up for upgrades and repair. Getting Apple's 'fit and finish' means a closed box.
      - violinist 7y ago
        That's true now, but it doesn't have to be. Before the retina MacBook Pro, the MacBook Pro used to be one of the easiest laptops to service. Opening it up, it was very easy to access almost every component.
H1Supreme 7y ago
> Hackintoshes need not apply here. If it's just about running MacOS, they absolutely apply.
- Klonoar 7y ago
  MacOS as an experience includes things like proper handoff support, Messages support, and so on - things that historically become a pain in the ass with a Hackintosh. So no, I don't consider it the same. It's a great hack if you want a ton of power for a build machine, but otherwise... I'd rather pay the financial cost up front and just be done with it.
8draco8 7y ago
Let's face it iOS and need for software for it is keeping Apple computers alive. If one day it would be possible to develop iOS apps on other operating systems Macs sales would crash.
- aikinai 7y ago
  You really think iOS developers are the majority of Mac sales? You can debunk that in two minutes of Googling.
  - 8draco8 7y ago
    Be my guest. iOS devs and people that are locked with MacOS exclusive apps are most of the professional customers.
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      Changing your assertion from Mac users in general to "professionals" is moving the goal posts a long way. As of last year, roughly 10% of all personal computers on the internet are Macs. Do you think a majority of those--say 6% of all PC users worldwide--are iOS devs and other professional MacOS lock-ins?
- simonh 7y ago
  The worldwide installed base of the Mac is 100 million. There only a bit over 2 million apps in the app store, so it seems unlikely a large proportion of those 100 million Macs are used to develop iOS apps.
- lawtalkinghuman 7y ago
  Citation needed. Every software company I've worked in building websites/webapps (Ruby, Python, Java, HTML/CSS/JS/React/whatever etc.) tends to issue their developers with MBPs. None of them need to do so for Xcode to build Mac/iOS apps. A few people may opt for Lenovos running Linux, but they're a distinct minority who really likes compiling their own tiling window manager from scratch etc. Why MBP as standard? Because you get a reasonably stable Unix box that also runs commercial business and productivity software (Office, video conference stuff), and the Adobe suite for the front-end/creative folks. Windows is going after that with WSL. Linux is going after that with, err, GNU/Freedom I guess? Writing Python/Ruby/JavaScript/Java/Go/Elixir/whatever hot new shiny, in Atom or Vim or VSCode, is about as easy on Linux as it is on Mac (and it is getting better on Windows with WSL). But when you've got to use some awful video conferencing corporate crapware, there's at least some chance it'll work on a Mac in a way it won't on Linux.
kelnos 7y ago
I've had the opposite problem: I love Apple hardware, but have never been a big fan of macOS. Unfortunately, since 2016 or so, Apple has been putting so much non-standard, proprietary hardware in their laptops (getting worse and worse every year) that the struggle to get Linux running well enough on them has been more than I've cared to deal with, so I recently jumped ship (junk like the Touch Bar and the general keyboard issues haven't helped my opinion either). I genuinely do like my new Dell XPS 13, but it still just doesn't have the same nice feel that a MacBook does.
Frost1x 7y ago
I recently went through the experience of having to adopt OS X after switching employers coming from primarily using unix flavors and Windows my entire career, avoiding OS X at every turn. My summarized conclusion is that: OS X isn't that great. It's not "bad," don't get me wrong, but it's nothing marvelous. Perhaps at one point in time there was some advantage over a Windows or linux environment but at this point in time, unless you're tied to some package tied to a specific environment for some reason, just work with the environment you're most comfortable with. I don't know how much time I've had to waste adjusting to the OS X environment (especially muscle memory keyboard shortcuts I'm accustomed to), finding replacement niche applications that were environment specific, figuring out how to do basic tasks that are simply different. On that note, avoid committing to a specific environment unless your application really needs to squeeze out every cycle of performance. It's 2019 and we have portable options now for most application demands.
- Klonoar 7y ago
  Your experience is just you finding what you like and then running up against something doing it differently. This is like moving to another country and complaining the culture is different. In which case, move home or somewhere else more to your liking? There's nothing inherently wrong with the way things work on Mac.
  - Frost1x 7y ago
    I think the point was missed since this reiterates what I stated. The analogy isn't correct. I have nothing against OS X but why switch if there's no justification other than for the sake of doing it (unless it's to satisfy your own interest, in which case: don't complain)? Using the above analogy: why would I move from... NYC to HK if there's no reason to do so? Why push someone or promote a change from X to Y unless there's a justified rationale for it? Change for the sake of change isn't inherently justifiable in-and-of-itself. Pushing OS X as being generically inferior (or superior) needs justification because I don't necessarily see it.
    - ProZsolt 7y ago
albertzeyer 7y ago
The quality of MacOSX just degraded over the last 5 years or so. It became buggier and slower. At this point, I would actually prefer Linux for my main desktop instead of macOS (if the hardware is well supported by Linux). I used to like macOS, but just as the hardware, it became worse and worse. So, comparing the MacBook with another notebook with similar hardware quality which is well supported by Linux, I would prefer the Linux notebook.
Keyframe 7y ago
You're saying that like macOS is a plus here.
- Klonoar 7y ago
  ...to those who choose to run it, yes, it is. I've noted this in a few other comments here but there's more to it than just the base computing system. Apple products as an ecosystem dwarf whatever you'd cobble together in some homegrown Linux-based setup, and Windows in general just feels... really messy, like there's no clear consensus on how the ecosystem should work.
Aperocky 7y ago
The only thing linux/other laptop manufacturer need at this point is better touchbar. There are nothing else making the macbook lines worth it. If Linux with hardware manufacturer come up with a standard for greater touchbar control, the mac will be out of circulation in no time.
shantly 7y ago
Yep, it's the high reliability & quality of the first party software (Safari, their office apps, notes, and so on), the excellent battery life (largely due to the software—run a browser other than Safari and watch that benefit take a huge hit), having a Unixy OS that's way less of a PITA on a laptop than Linux (ran it for years as my main OS, including on a Thinkpad, so yes, I'm familiar), and the touchpad that doesn't make me feel like I have to have a mouse to use the machine for more than five minutes, that keep me on board. There were other things (good-enough port selection complementing the high battery life and good trackpad to mean I could just grab my laptop and go for nearly any situation, without taking anything else, being high among them) but they're gone now. It's basically the software and the trackpad keeping me around. I'd rather use a "worse" Macbook specs-wise than a Win10 or Linux laptop that's much better on paper, because the experience will still suck far less. Design, "thinness", trendiness, all that, don't give a shit. Give me a brick of a Thinkpad with an Apple trackpad, official macOS support, and a 20% lower price than a MBP at same specs, and I'll take that option in a heartbeat.
- enedil 7y ago
  That's not macOS, I'm using Linux on my MacBook for two years now and it feels pleasurable to use the touchpad just as it was before.
  - Klonoar 7y ago
    No, this _is_ macOS - you won't have the same gesture(s), the fidelity, on other OS's. Apple goes to great lengths to ensure their trackpad is amazing on both the hardware and software side, and it shows. The drivers on Linux even running on a Macbook don't compare.

canuckintime 7y ago

> Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... would you agree with this change to your description?: "Yes, you could get [better] hardware somewhere else..."

Klonoar 7y ago
Not really, "better" hardware is subjective in a laptop. For all the complaining people do, Apple is very good about ensuring that the hardware in their machines works as expected and hits a solid baseline performance level for given tasks.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  Except for the keyboard fiasco, obviously
  - theklr 7y ago
    Anecdotes ≠ fact
    - FireBeyond 7y ago
      When something rises to the level of a recall, especially for Apple (who denied that logic board issues were an issue on two separate models of MBP for me for months before issuing recalls), it rises a bit beyond "anecdote".
      - theklr 7y ago
        I may have not been verbose in the first post, but it was intended to be less about the technical and more about how there's this weird demand culture just because we know a couple people who have a similar issue.
        wlesieutre 7y ago
        Slightly larger anecdata then: I have a group chat with some friends where we were discussing the 16" MBP announcement this morning. One computer out of six has (so far) gotten by with a reliably performing keyboard. Some of the others haven't gotten bad enough to deal with shipping them off for repair, but that doesn't mean they're working acceptably. But I'll concede it's possible that this all a coincidence and we're a very unlucky sample. There's probably not a good source of hard numbers, since Apple only know about the ones who were able to deal with getting it repaired. I read that they're trying to do next-day turnaround for in-store keyboard replacements now, but not all of us live anywhere near an Apple Store. For another point of reference, a poll from Basecamp: https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-surely-worse-than-apple-thinks/ https://m.signalvnoise.com/the-macbook-keyboard-fiasco-is-su... Specifically take note of the 2018 numbers. 6 of 13 keyboards having problem, and if every single one of those was purchased the day the 2018 model was released, they're a maximum of 10 months old when the poll was taken. Many of them are likely newer than that. 6 out of 13 in less than a year. Even if there's a biased sample in who responded to this, that's a lot of bad keyboards. Anyway, I’m glad to see a new keyboard design, and if I seem salty about it that’s because I’m personally annoyed at my 2016’s keyboard and all Apple can do about it is replace it with another of the same keyboard that will probably fail in the same way again. EDIT - corrected my group figures. One person has a working keyboard. And for what it's worth, another person who works in IT hasn't seen an overwhelming failure rate in their office (knock on wood, he notes). But most them are using external keyboards for data entry (with numpads), so the internal keys aren’t used heavily. His own MBP is counted among the failed ones though.
    - computerex 7y ago
      The butterfly keyboard had design flaws. This is a well known and well documented fact. There is literally an Apple keyboard repair program for the butterfly keyboard, and this new MacBook pro uses a different keyboard design altogether.
aequitas 7y ago
I wouldn't. Maybe on pure specs, yes. But there is just no substitute for me for the trackpads Apple builds into their laptops. And the overall quality and longevity of the devices. I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable).
- mcv 7y ago
  My old Macbook Pro from 2011 just broke. But that's certainly a respectable lifespan. I never replaced it because no new Macbook excited me like that one: they were increasingly hard to maintain, glued components, no 17 inch screen anymore, and keyboards kept getting worse. When it finally broke down, I got a Thinkpad. This new 16" Macbook would be the first in years that I'd consider, but it's just a couple of months too late. I found my replacement.
  - aequitas 7y ago
    I was afraid of having to go that path when Apple would continue with their direction in pro hardware. I was only allowed to use a Linux laptop (Dell) in my previous job and even with how customizable Linux is I just could never get comfortable with it.
- FpUser 7y ago
  " I've only bought/got a new Apple device because I could, never because I had to (ie: it was broken/unusable)." Same case for me but desktops and laptops are Windows based. Laptops: very old Toshiba which was super nice at the time. After that gaming laptops from Asus and HP. All desktops are built to order from the components I chose. Hardware problems during last 20 years: 3 hard drives had died (one on desktop, 2 on servers). Does not mean of course that I use the same one for 20 years. Keep upgrading them every once in a while as the amount of stuff I have to keep grows. 1 Video card from nVidia died. 1 Desktop began crashing. Further investigation revealed that thermal paste deteriorated completely and the CPU would shutdown after a very short while. Put new thermal paste and all works again like a charm. Other then that I kept upgrading things but now it does not happen so often as the hardware became generally good enough for just about anything. Well I am sort of looking at that new 32 Core AMD for server when it comes out.
weberc2 7y ago
If that’s true, I haven’t found it when I’ve shopped for a laptop to install Linux onto. This wasn’t always the case, but right around the time of Windows 8 when everything needed a touchscreen and chromebooks were eating the low end of the market, good affordable hardware seemingly disappeared. I would have to spend $1500 to get something in the same ballpark as an entry level MacBook and it would still have profoundly terrible touchpad (whether running Linux or Windows, it never mattered), a mediocre keyboard, a plastic body, and noisy fans. Chromebooks do offer better hardware per dollar than other computers, but you are (or perhaps were) pretty locked-into the ChromeOS, or at least none of the workarounds seemed palatable. So if you like ChromeOS then there is better value hardware out there, but Mac is it for the rest of us.
- computerex 7y ago
  There is a lot of competition in the laptop space now. Apple no longer produces hands down the best notebooks in terms of hardware. The touchpad on the new Lenovo/Dell laptops have gotten very very good. Same goes for screen quality.
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Good to know. I'll have to check them out. My ~2015 Lenovo touchpad is utterly abysmal.

mcv 7y ago

And that's the big thing that keeps surprising me: that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it. Everybody seems content saddling their hardware with Windows. Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled garden.

IMTDb 7y ago
> that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it That would be System 76 https://system76.com/laptops/adder https://system76.com/laptops/adder with their pop OS linux distro https://system76.com/pop https://system76.com/pop
- kitsunesoba 7y ago
  PopOS is great but I think system76 needs to design their laptops from scratch instead of relabeling Clevo laptops if they’re serious about challenging Apple. Their laptops have the specs, but the fit and finish is just not there.
  - Finnucane 7y ago
    I have a Clevo laptop (a few years old now) and even at the time, it was not exactly state of the art in terms of weight, battery life, etc. It's proven to be a fairly tough beast (even having fallen off my bike and lived). It is, unlike many new laptops, relatively easy to open up for upgrades and repair. Getting Apple's 'fit and finish' means a closed box.
    - violinist 7y ago
      That's true now, but it doesn't have to be. Before the retina MacBook Pro, the MacBook Pro used to be one of the easiest laptops to service. Opening it up, it was very easy to access almost every component.

H1Supreme 7y ago

> Hackintoshes need not apply here. If it's just about running MacOS, they absolutely apply.

Klonoar 7y ago
MacOS as an experience includes things like proper handoff support, Messages support, and so on - things that historically become a pain in the ass with a Hackintosh. So no, I don't consider it the same. It's a great hack if you want a ton of power for a build machine, but otherwise... I'd rather pay the financial cost up front and just be done with it.

8draco8 7y ago

Let's face it iOS and need for software for it is keeping Apple computers alive. If one day it would be possible to develop iOS apps on other operating systems Macs sales would crash.

aikinai 7y ago
You really think iOS developers are the majority of Mac sales? You can debunk that in two minutes of Googling.
- 8draco8 7y ago
  Be my guest. iOS devs and people that are locked with MacOS exclusive apps are most of the professional customers.
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Changing your assertion from Mac users in general to "professionals" is moving the goal posts a long way. As of last year, roughly 10% of all personal computers on the internet are Macs. Do you think a majority of those--say 6% of all PC users worldwide--are iOS devs and other professional MacOS lock-ins?
simonh 7y ago
The worldwide installed base of the Mac is 100 million. There only a bit over 2 million apps in the app store, so it seems unlikely a large proportion of those 100 million Macs are used to develop iOS apps.
lawtalkinghuman 7y ago
Citation needed. Every software company I've worked in building websites/webapps (Ruby, Python, Java, HTML/CSS/JS/React/whatever etc.) tends to issue their developers with MBPs. None of them need to do so for Xcode to build Mac/iOS apps. A few people may opt for Lenovos running Linux, but they're a distinct minority who really likes compiling their own tiling window manager from scratch etc. Why MBP as standard? Because you get a reasonably stable Unix box that also runs commercial business and productivity software (Office, video conference stuff), and the Adobe suite for the front-end/creative folks. Windows is going after that with WSL. Linux is going after that with, err, GNU/Freedom I guess? Writing Python/Ruby/JavaScript/Java/Go/Elixir/whatever hot new shiny, in Atom or Vim or VSCode, is about as easy on Linux as it is on Mac (and it is getting better on Windows with WSL). But when you've got to use some awful video conferencing corporate crapware, there's at least some chance it'll work on a Mac in a way it won't on Linux.

kelnos 7y ago

I've had the opposite problem: I love Apple hardware, but have never been a big fan of macOS. Unfortunately, since 2016 or so, Apple has been putting so much non-standard, proprietary hardware in their laptops (getting worse and worse every year) that the struggle to get Linux running well enough on them has been more than I've cared to deal with, so I recently jumped ship (junk like the Touch Bar and the general keyboard issues haven't helped my opinion either). I genuinely do like my new Dell XPS 13, but it still just doesn't have the same nice feel that a MacBook does.

Frost1x 7y ago

I recently went through the experience of having to adopt OS X after switching employers coming from primarily using unix flavors and Windows my entire career, avoiding OS X at every turn. My summarized conclusion is that: OS X isn't that great. It's not "bad," don't get me wrong, but it's nothing marvelous. Perhaps at one point in time there was some advantage over a Windows or linux environment but at this point in time, unless you're tied to some package tied to a specific environment for some reason, just work with the environment you're most comfortable with. I don't know how much time I've had to waste adjusting to the OS X environment (especially muscle memory keyboard shortcuts I'm accustomed to), finding replacement niche applications that were environment specific, figuring out how to do basic tasks that are simply different. On that note, avoid committing to a specific environment unless your application really needs to squeeze out every cycle of performance. It's 2019 and we have portable options now for most application demands.

Klonoar 7y ago
Your experience is just you finding what you like and then running up against something doing it differently. This is like moving to another country and complaining the culture is different. In which case, move home or somewhere else more to your liking? There's nothing inherently wrong with the way things work on Mac.
- Frost1x 7y ago
  I think the point was missed since this reiterates what I stated. The analogy isn't correct. I have nothing against OS X but why switch if there's no justification other than for the sake of doing it (unless it's to satisfy your own interest, in which case: don't complain)? Using the above analogy: why would I move from... NYC to HK if there's no reason to do so? Why push someone or promote a change from X to Y unless there's a justified rationale for it? Change for the sake of change isn't inherently justifiable in-and-of-itself. Pushing OS X as being generically inferior (or superior) needs justification because I don't necessarily see it.
  - ProZsolt 7y ago

albertzeyer 7y ago

The quality of MacOSX just degraded over the last 5 years or so. It became buggier and slower. At this point, I would actually prefer Linux for my main desktop instead of macOS (if the hardware is well supported by Linux). I used to like macOS, but just as the hardware, it became worse and worse. So, comparing the MacBook with another notebook with similar hardware quality which is well supported by Linux, I would prefer the Linux notebook.

Keyframe 7y ago

You're saying that like macOS is a plus here.

Klonoar 7y ago
...to those who choose to run it, yes, it is. I've noted this in a few other comments here but there's more to it than just the base computing system. Apple products as an ecosystem dwarf whatever you'd cobble together in some homegrown Linux-based setup, and Windows in general just feels... really messy, like there's no clear consensus on how the ecosystem should work.

Aperocky 7y ago

The only thing linux/other laptop manufacturer need at this point is better touchbar. There are nothing else making the macbook lines worth it. If Linux with hardware manufacturer come up with a standard for greater touchbar control, the mac will be out of circulation in no time.

shantly 7y ago

Yep, it's the high reliability & quality of the first party software (Safari, their office apps, notes, and so on), the excellent battery life (largely due to the software—run a browser other than Safari and watch that benefit take a huge hit), having a Unixy OS that's way less of a PITA on a laptop than Linux (ran it for years as my main OS, including on a Thinkpad, so yes, I'm familiar), and the touchpad that doesn't make me feel like I have to have a mouse to use the machine for more than five minutes, that keep me on board. There were other things (good-enough port selection complementing the high battery life and good trackpad to mean I could just grab my laptop and go for nearly any situation, without taking anything else, being high among them) but they're gone now. It's basically the software and the trackpad keeping me around. I'd rather use a "worse" Macbook specs-wise than a Win10 or Linux laptop that's much better on paper, because the experience will still suck far less. Design, "thinness", trendiness, all that, don't give a shit. Give me a brick of a Thinkpad with an Apple trackpad, official macOS support, and a 20% lower price than a MBP at same specs, and I'll take that option in a heartbeat.

enedil 7y ago
That's not macOS, I'm using Linux on my MacBook for two years now and it feels pleasurable to use the touchpad just as it was before.
- Klonoar 7y ago
  No, this _is_ macOS - you won't have the same gesture(s), the fidelity, on other OS's. Apple goes to great lengths to ensure their trackpad is amazing on both the hardware and software side, and it shows. The drivers on Linux even running on a Macbook don't compare.