14 ms·

"I'm so glad this model has a touchbar" "I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar" things no one ever said.

by ses1984 7y ago

Twisell 7y ago
Well having a Gen1 2016 MBP I feel quite reassured that they didn't drop the concept altogether, because that mean better support for my current machine. Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.
sdan 7y ago
One of the reasons I'm keeping my MBP w/o touchbar. Although initially I thought I was missing out, I found that by discontinuing this model, they're only proving how great it is.
thisisnico 7y ago
Agreed. They look/feel so gimmicky IMO.
aequitas 7y ago
When I was in the market for the 2019 model (bought a second hand 2015 instead) I tried the touchbar and really liked what it offered in terms of context aware controls. But I quickly realised I could never incorporate it into my workflow since I use my laptop docked most of the time. Meaning I have an external keyboard, without a touchbar. So all productivity gained by a touchbar would only work when I'm not behind a desk. Making investing into the touchbar useless and leaving it as just a gimmick indeed.
- OkGoDoIt 7y ago
  Might a desktop computer be a better purchase in that case?
eitland 7y ago
For the record: think twice before buying Dell XPS. I'm on my second now. Poor hardware quality on both. The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting. The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day). Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.
- jcadam 7y ago
  I got a refurb XPS 13 9370 that still seems to be doing fine after a year (I run Fedora on it). I'd previously owned a latitude and while I thought it was a good machine, I wanted something lighter - the quad-core U-series CPUs finally convinced me to try an ultrabook :) I have heard the XPS 15s tend to have more "issues."
- rhencke 7y ago
  Yeah, new XPS 15 here. Would be a beautiful machine, if it weren't for the constant thermal issues..
- jcranberry 7y ago
  I was about to disagree before I realized with my Precision 5520 (analogous to XPS 15) the left hinge is broken and my battery is dead, and they both broke after about a year. I don't know about the battery but the hinge was certainly a problem with the line in general, since it was a flimsy plastic thing unable to hold the weight of the 4k screen it came with...I'd be a bit surprised if that hasn't been fixed in the around 2.5 years since I bought it though.
  - jgalentine007 7y ago
    My 5520 has been flawless and is also just over 2 years old. I have the 1080p matte screen though. Only other laptop I had that has come as close to nirvana as the 5520 was a Thinkpad T42 and 2012 mbp 15.
pcr910303 7y ago
> "I'm so glad this model has a touchbar" I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar. I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience. If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow. I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on. I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).
- jeromegv 7y ago
  Well they can actually measure the repair rate of the butterfly mechanism, this is a different thing. That's why they also extended warranty on those keyboards. The defect is measurable, this isn't about complainers on the net.
  - hosh 7y ago
    Or rather, it isn't just about complainers on the net. The design seemed to have incorporated a lot of other feedback from pro users. Something that seems to satisfy users _and_ is less costly seems to be a no-brainer business decision.
- ggtt 7y ago
  Can you say slightly more about how you use it in Emacs? I've wondered if something like this is possible (although I'm not sure what would be useful to have it do).
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    It's a hacked-in-a-afternoon solution, but the gist is that I run a server in Emacs based on the emacs-web-server package[0], and I wrote some scripts that request to them. I used Better Touch Tool[1] to add the buttons that execute the scripts. [0] https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server [1] https://folivora.ai https://folivora.ai
wil421 7y ago
I love my 15” 2017 MBP with a Touch Bar. It’s much easier to mute and slide the volume than my previous MBP. Safari and VScode have Touch Bar features I like. Glad they brought back the esc key. On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back. Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  I still have physical f-keys, and every time I use my gf's touchbar macbook, I realize I have to look at the touchbar just to do anything, like modify the volume or change the brightness. I run into this every time I use it when I just want to make quick volume adjustments. And it takes multiple taps to get things done that used to take a single button press. Also, I immediately missed global media playback controls. It's just a showstopper for a lot of us that it's another screen you have to look at. I don't want my eyes to leave the main screen. It's like if they tried to turn the trackpad into a screen: no matter how much functionality it might have, it's still somewhere I don't want to have to look when I'm using a computer. I also was amazed at how unused it was. You probably named the only apps that use the touchbar because nothing on her computer did. And if they did, it was just cloned UI of UI that the main screen already had. I think the only useful usecase I've noticed is that the touchbar will show the url of the current video when you fullscreen it, if I want to damn it with faint praise.
  - wil421 7y ago
    When I’m doing work I use 2 external monitors with a keyboard and mouse. All the keys I need to be efficient are right on my full sized keyboard. I have a coworker who refuses to use more than one monitor (either his laptop or laptop closed with a small square monitor) so I guess people don’t like to use them. For personal use I use it on my lap in a chair or on the couch. The extra time it takes to look down is not a show stopper. Switching tabs is nice in Safari because you get a slight preview and it’s also great for media controls. Do you work on your MPB and do you use external monitors? What apps do you use the function keys for? If you think it’s unused then take a look at these 3rd party apps.[1] Pock looks pretty cool. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-for-macbook-pro/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-...
mstade 7y ago
I initially found the touchbar to mostly be a gimmick, new for the sake of being new and not really bringing anything useful to the table. A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once. That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.
- dewey 7y ago
  My problem with the TouchBar is that I'm using my laptop with an external screen 90% of the time so I'm never really getting used to it. If the external keyboard had a TouchBar and I would start incorporating it into my workflow I can see it's use-fullness.
  - iNate2000 7y ago
    Maybe now that it's called a "Magic Keyboard" they will sell it as a stand-alone product. I usually put my laptop in front of me with an external screen above it. That way I get used to the laptop keyboard and can feel right at home in a conference room or wherever.
    - geerlingguy 7y ago
      They already sell the Magic Keyboard, and I have one on my desk: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-us-english https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
      - the-dude 7y ago
        What is magic about it? It looks very basic.
benjymo 7y ago
I may be in the minorty and like the touch bar. Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well. Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.
- optimuspaul 7y ago
  I also like the Touch Bar and I think this.. >Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX x1000. Function keys have almost always been useless to me. Once in a while I will remember what one is mapped to and use it, but for the most part they go unused.
- TheCondor 7y ago
  They used to make cardboard guides that could sit on top of the older ibm keyboards when most of the world used one... I don’t know that you can replace the feel but some haptic taps or something might improve the touch bar. I generally like it bur on it and my older MBPs I pretty much used escape and volume and screen brightness settings and otherwise never used that row. Since laptops, the f-keys simply aren’t what they used to be, it’s not unusual for them to be overloaded or even require a shift like key to be pressed for f-key behavior.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  I can see this in a small number of situations, but how many developers use the laptop's screen and keyboard for coding? Pretty much everyone I know and every workplace I've seen has proper monitors and keyboards for everyone (developers included). A laptop has terrible ergonomics. That makes the touchbar a bit pointless, except when working on a train or plane, or at a meeting or conference.
  - Clubber 7y ago
    I'm probably an outlier, but I use the laptop's screen and keyboard most of the time. My normal environment is in a La-Z-Boy in front of the TV with a lap desk. It's quite nice. I have a computer room / office as well that's a really nice setup, but I prefer sitting in the recliner.
jen20 7y ago
I say both of those things. Although about thinkpads, not Dells.
lcnmrn 7y ago
I don't understand why they don't let users remap Fn keys in System Preferences. That will pretty much replace 90% of Touch Bar use cases.
- chipotle_coyote 7y ago
  It depends on what you mean by "remap," maybe? The Shortcuts tab in Keyboard preferences lets you add/change keyboard shortcuts for a tremendous number of things, including every menu item in every application. (And of course if you were willing to go third party you could investigate something like Keyboard Maestro.)
moron4hire 7y ago
I wouldn't buy a Dell XPS, but I would probably buy a Gigabyte Aero with a touchbar.
mtnGoat 7y ago
Speak for yourself, I love my touchbar, add was hoping they'd keep it. Rather then getting hung up on hating, learn to like it. Pretty useful if you give it a chance.
- mtnGoat 7y ago
  pretty cool how we downvote opposing opinions. i guess ya'll like echo chambers ehh?
jjtheblunt 7y ago
I'd say it. I use the touchbar and like it, and have been touch typing since the late 80s. Can't say why, as a touch typist, I like it, though. I just do.
AtlasBarfed 7y ago
A touchbar above the function keys would have been a radical improvement if it helped explain what the Fn keys did. Or leds in the keys that allowed them to show icons for what they did. If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling. And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate. And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 7y ago
The non-technical users I know love the Touch Bar.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Any of whom I imagine bought a $2400+ web browsing machine. This is supposed to be a "Pro" model, right?
EL_Loco 7y ago
“Our pro customers tell us they want their next MacBook Pro to have a larger display, blazing-fast performance, the biggest battery possible, the best notebook keyboard ever, awesome speakers and massive amounts of storage" things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.
elamje 7y ago
Once you install https://pock.dev https://pock.dev, the touchbar is useful
toasterlovin 7y ago
In my opinion, TouchBar is worth it for several reasons: 1) start and stop screensharing in Zoom, 2) quickly end Zoom calls, 3) autofill on web forms.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  So... if I don't use Zoom I have one reason? Maybe? 1 and 2 are essentially the same reason anyway (Zoom integration) and I lost my function keys for it.

"I'm so glad this model has a touchbar" "I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar" things no one ever said.

Well having a Gen1 2016 MBP I feel quite reassured that they didn't drop the concept altogether, because that mean better support for my current machine. Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.

sdan 7y ago

One of the reasons I'm keeping my MBP w/o touchbar. Although initially I thought I was missing out, I found that by discontinuing this model, they're only proving how great it is.

thisisnico 7y ago

Agreed. They look/feel so gimmicky IMO.

aequitas 7y ago

When I was in the market for the 2019 model (bought a second hand 2015 instead) I tried the touchbar and really liked what it offered in terms of context aware controls. But I quickly realised I could never incorporate it into my workflow since I use my laptop docked most of the time. Meaning I have an external keyboard, without a touchbar. So all productivity gained by a touchbar would only work when I'm not behind a desk. Making investing into the touchbar useless and leaving it as just a gimmick indeed.

OkGoDoIt 7y ago
Might a desktop computer be a better purchase in that case?

eitland 7y ago

For the record: think twice before buying Dell XPS. I'm on my second now. Poor hardware quality on both. The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting. The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day). Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.

jcadam 7y ago
I got a refurb XPS 13 9370 that still seems to be doing fine after a year (I run Fedora on it). I'd previously owned a latitude and while I thought it was a good machine, I wanted something lighter - the quad-core U-series CPUs finally convinced me to try an ultrabook :) I have heard the XPS 15s tend to have more "issues."
rhencke 7y ago
Yeah, new XPS 15 here. Would be a beautiful machine, if it weren't for the constant thermal issues..
jcranberry 7y ago
I was about to disagree before I realized with my Precision 5520 (analogous to XPS 15) the left hinge is broken and my battery is dead, and they both broke after about a year. I don't know about the battery but the hinge was certainly a problem with the line in general, since it was a flimsy plastic thing unable to hold the weight of the 4k screen it came with...I'd be a bit surprised if that hasn't been fixed in the around 2.5 years since I bought it though.
- jgalentine007 7y ago
  My 5520 has been flawless and is also just over 2 years old. I have the 1080p matte screen though. Only other laptop I had that has come as close to nirvana as the 5520 was a Thinkpad T42 and 2012 mbp 15.

pcr910303 7y ago

> "I'm so glad this model has a touchbar" I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar. I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience. If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow. I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on. I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).

jeromegv 7y ago
Well they can actually measure the repair rate of the butterfly mechanism, this is a different thing. That's why they also extended warranty on those keyboards. The defect is measurable, this isn't about complainers on the net.
- hosh 7y ago
  Or rather, it isn't just about complainers on the net. The design seemed to have incorporated a lot of other feedback from pro users. Something that seems to satisfy users _and_ is less costly seems to be a no-brainer business decision.
ggtt 7y ago
Can you say slightly more about how you use it in Emacs? I've wondered if something like this is possible (although I'm not sure what would be useful to have it do).
- pcr910303 7y ago
  It's a hacked-in-a-afternoon solution, but the gist is that I run a server in Emacs based on the emacs-web-server package[0], and I wrote some scripts that request to them. I used Better Touch Tool[1] to add the buttons that execute the scripts. [0] https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server https://github.com/eschulte/emacs-web-server [1] https://folivora.ai https://folivora.ai

wil421 7y ago

I love my 15” 2017 MBP with a Touch Bar. It’s much easier to mute and slide the volume than my previous MBP. Safari and VScode have Touch Bar features I like. Glad they brought back the esc key. On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back. Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
I still have physical f-keys, and every time I use my gf's touchbar macbook, I realize I have to look at the touchbar just to do anything, like modify the volume or change the brightness. I run into this every time I use it when I just want to make quick volume adjustments. And it takes multiple taps to get things done that used to take a single button press. Also, I immediately missed global media playback controls. It's just a showstopper for a lot of us that it's another screen you have to look at. I don't want my eyes to leave the main screen. It's like if they tried to turn the trackpad into a screen: no matter how much functionality it might have, it's still somewhere I don't want to have to look when I'm using a computer. I also was amazed at how unused it was. You probably named the only apps that use the touchbar because nothing on her computer did. And if they did, it was just cloned UI of UI that the main screen already had. I think the only useful usecase I've noticed is that the touchbar will show the url of the current video when you fullscreen it, if I want to damn it with faint praise.
- wil421 7y ago
  When I’m doing work I use 2 external monitors with a keyboard and mouse. All the keys I need to be efficient are right on my full sized keyboard. I have a coworker who refuses to use more than one monitor (either his laptop or laptop closed with a small square monitor) so I guess people don’t like to use them. For personal use I use it on my lap in a chair or on the couch. The extra time it takes to look down is not a show stopper. Switching tabs is nice in Safari because you get a slight preview and it’s also great for media controls. Do you work on your MPB and do you use external monitors? What apps do you use the function keys for? If you think it’s unused then take a look at these 3rd party apps.[1] Pock looks pretty cool. [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-for-macbook-pro/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-...

mstade 7y ago

I initially found the touchbar to mostly be a gimmick, new for the sake of being new and not really bringing anything useful to the table. A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once. That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.

dewey 7y ago
My problem with the TouchBar is that I'm using my laptop with an external screen 90% of the time so I'm never really getting used to it. If the external keyboard had a TouchBar and I would start incorporating it into my workflow I can see it's use-fullness.
- iNate2000 7y ago
  Maybe now that it's called a "Magic Keyboard" they will sell it as a stand-alone product. I usually put my laptop in front of me with an external screen above it. That way I get used to the laptop keyboard and can feel right at home in a conference room or wherever.
  - geerlingguy 7y ago
    They already sell the Magic Keyboard, and I have one on my desk: https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-us-english https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MLA22LL/A/magic-keyboard-...
    - the-dude 7y ago
      What is magic about it? It looks very basic.

benjymo 7y ago

I may be in the minorty and like the touch bar. Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well. Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.

optimuspaul 7y ago
I also like the Touch Bar and I think this.. >Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX x1000. Function keys have almost always been useless to me. Once in a while I will remember what one is mapped to and use it, but for the most part they go unused.
TheCondor 7y ago
They used to make cardboard guides that could sit on top of the older ibm keyboards when most of the world used one... I don’t know that you can replace the feel but some haptic taps or something might improve the touch bar. I generally like it bur on it and my older MBPs I pretty much used escape and volume and screen brightness settings and otherwise never used that row. Since laptops, the f-keys simply aren’t what they used to be, it’s not unusual for them to be overloaded or even require a shift like key to be pressed for f-key behavior.
Symbiote 7y ago
I can see this in a small number of situations, but how many developers use the laptop's screen and keyboard for coding? Pretty much everyone I know and every workplace I've seen has proper monitors and keyboards for everyone (developers included). A laptop has terrible ergonomics. That makes the touchbar a bit pointless, except when working on a train or plane, or at a meeting or conference.
- Clubber 7y ago
  I'm probably an outlier, but I use the laptop's screen and keyboard most of the time. My normal environment is in a La-Z-Boy in front of the TV with a lap desk. It's quite nice. I have a computer room / office as well that's a really nice setup, but I prefer sitting in the recliner.

jen20 7y ago

I say both of those things. Although about thinkpads, not Dells.

lcnmrn 7y ago

I don't understand why they don't let users remap Fn keys in System Preferences. That will pretty much replace 90% of Touch Bar use cases.

chipotle_coyote 7y ago
It depends on what you mean by "remap," maybe? The Shortcuts tab in Keyboard preferences lets you add/change keyboard shortcuts for a tremendous number of things, including every menu item in every application. (And of course if you were willing to go third party you could investigate something like Keyboard Maestro.)

moron4hire 7y ago

I wouldn't buy a Dell XPS, but I would probably buy a Gigabyte Aero with a touchbar.

mtnGoat 7y ago

Speak for yourself, I love my touchbar, add was hoping they'd keep it. Rather then getting hung up on hating, learn to like it. Pretty useful if you give it a chance.

mtnGoat 7y ago
pretty cool how we downvote opposing opinions. i guess ya'll like echo chambers ehh?

jjtheblunt 7y ago

I'd say it. I use the touchbar and like it, and have been touch typing since the late 80s. Can't say why, as a touch typist, I like it, though. I just do.

AtlasBarfed 7y ago

A touchbar above the function keys would have been a radical improvement if it helped explain what the Fn keys did. Or leds in the keys that allowed them to show icons for what they did. If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling. And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate. And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 7y ago

The non-technical users I know love the Touch Bar.

EpicEng 7y ago
Any of whom I imagine bought a $2400+ web browsing machine. This is supposed to be a "Pro" model, right?

EL_Loco 7y ago

“Our pro customers tell us they want their next MacBook Pro to have a larger display, blazing-fast performance, the biggest battery possible, the best notebook keyboard ever, awesome speakers and massive amounts of storage" things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.

elamje 7y ago

Once you install https://pock.dev https://pock.dev, the touchbar is useful

toasterlovin 7y ago

In my opinion, TouchBar is worth it for several reasons: 1) start and stop screensharing in Zoom, 2) quickly end Zoom calls, 3) autofill on web forms.

EpicEng 7y ago
So... if I don't use Zoom I have one reason? Maybe? 1 and 2 are essentially the same reason anyway (Zoom integration) and I lost my function keys for it.