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> Expecting to have the same rights as if using your own devices when using someone else’s device that they are paying you to perform work on qualifies as an in

> Expecting to have the same rights as if using your own devices when using someone else’s device that they are paying you to perform work on qualifies as an indignity to me. Every single second that you are working, you know that your employer might be looking over your shoulder. It's like living under a microscope. For me, this is an indignity. Having to work in such circumstances would probably drive me to deep depression. > Do people in EU countries expect to use any other of their employer’s equipment for personal reasons? Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that human beings are the most important thing. I find mainstream American values increasingly inhumane.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
US law holds the employer responsible for what happens on their computers. No one cares to if you check your email every now and then or read the news. But how can an organization protect itself from the myriad ways someone can damage the computer or others on the network without monitoring it? In addition, everyone has a personal computer in their pocket they can use if they want privacy.
- normalnorm 7y ago
  Yes, yes. There is always some legal reason with you guys. Somehow we manage here in Europe. Go figure...
  - meowface 7y ago
    But how do you manage? That's why I wanted to hear from infosec operations people who work in Europe. Security breaches can be a massive risk for an organization, and there are undoubtedly a lot of serious security issues, which could've turned into something much worse, that my team at my old job would've missed if we had absolutely no right to look at network and web traffic from a company computer. I do agree that there should be more requirements to look at data, though. Managers requesting bullshit fishing expeditions to see if an employee is slacking off should be required to submit some sort of evidence before making the request. That never sat right with me, or anyone on my team. But for security issues, there was no question that there was an absolute necessity and justified reason to look at that information. I'm asking because my concern is maybe European corporate infosec people really aren't managing, here, and are blind to some ongoing major security issues.
JohnBooty 7y ago
Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that human beings are the most important thing. American here: I strongly agree. And I don't like giving more power to corporations. They have too much already, and I believe that strong labor movements are one way to fight this. Still, I just... would never feel "entitled" to use my employer's property for personal uses. And I wouldn't have an expectation of privacy. When I care about privacy, I simply use my own device. Now, let me be clear. The reality of working in America is that people use their work computers for personal uses all day long. Generally nobody cares, as long as you're getting your work done. And if somebody really needs to do something personal, they can always just whip our their phones. If I was printing out some concert tickets at work, I'd use my employer's printer. Everybody does this. But if I was going to send some sexy messages I wouldn't do it with work equipment. So, I don't know. I just don't see the problem. There are many many problems with America, and many ways in which Europe does things better IMO. I just don't see this as one of them.
- mcv 7y ago
  There's a difference between using the computer and expecting privacy on it. It's entirely possible that you're not supposed to use certain equipment for personal use, but if you do it anyway, that doesn't erode your right to privacy. I'm not saying this is always the case in the EU, though. Obviously there is equipment where for many reasons it's absolutely vital that you don't use it for anything personal. I'm not supposed to run a torrent client on the company server, for example. You can't just "borrow" a company car for a personal trip. But when I happen to use the laptop that the company has assigned to me to work on, to do a bank payment, my boss has absolutely no business knowing the details of that transaction.
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    I would have to agree. A company decrypting my encrypted traffic would not be okay. I would be okay with them knowing I visited the banking site on company time (if I used their equipment, their DNS, etc) but not with decrypting the SSL encrypted data I'm exchanging with the bank or obtaining it in some other way such as a keylogger. Though again, I'd probably avoid the issue entirely by using my own device and data connection if I didn't trust my employer. (I'm a bit spoiled, working in IT: I'd probably know if my employer was doing shady things with the data)
deleted 7y ago
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lotsofpulp 7y ago

US law holds the employer responsible for what happens on their computers. No one cares to if you check your email every now and then or read the news. But how can an organization protect itself from the myriad ways someone can damage the computer or others on the network without monitoring it? In addition, everyone has a personal computer in their pocket they can use if they want privacy.

normalnorm 7y ago
Yes, yes. There is always some legal reason with you guys. Somehow we manage here in Europe. Go figure...
- meowface 7y ago
  But how do you manage? That's why I wanted to hear from infosec operations people who work in Europe. Security breaches can be a massive risk for an organization, and there are undoubtedly a lot of serious security issues, which could've turned into something much worse, that my team at my old job would've missed if we had absolutely no right to look at network and web traffic from a company computer. I do agree that there should be more requirements to look at data, though. Managers requesting bullshit fishing expeditions to see if an employee is slacking off should be required to submit some sort of evidence before making the request. That never sat right with me, or anyone on my team. But for security issues, there was no question that there was an absolute necessity and justified reason to look at that information. I'm asking because my concern is maybe European corporate infosec people really aren't managing, here, and are blind to some ongoing major security issues.

JohnBooty 7y ago

Within reason, sure. I would say that the main value that underlies all EU countries (not that we realize it perfectly, or even get close to it, of course!) is that human beings are the most important thing. American here: I strongly agree. And I don't like giving more power to corporations. They have too much already, and I believe that strong labor movements are one way to fight this. Still, I just... would never feel "entitled" to use my employer's property for personal uses. And I wouldn't have an expectation of privacy. When I care about privacy, I simply use my own device. Now, let me be clear. The reality of working in America is that people use their work computers for personal uses all day long. Generally nobody cares, as long as you're getting your work done. And if somebody really needs to do something personal, they can always just whip our their phones. If I was printing out some concert tickets at work, I'd use my employer's printer. Everybody does this. But if I was going to send some sexy messages I wouldn't do it with work equipment. So, I don't know. I just don't see the problem. There are many many problems with America, and many ways in which Europe does things better IMO. I just don't see this as one of them.

mcv 7y ago
There's a difference between using the computer and expecting privacy on it. It's entirely possible that you're not supposed to use certain equipment for personal use, but if you do it anyway, that doesn't erode your right to privacy. I'm not saying this is always the case in the EU, though. Obviously there is equipment where for many reasons it's absolutely vital that you don't use it for anything personal. I'm not supposed to run a torrent client on the company server, for example. You can't just "borrow" a company car for a personal trip. But when I happen to use the laptop that the company has assigned to me to work on, to do a bank payment, my boss has absolutely no business knowing the details of that transaction.
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  I would have to agree. A company decrypting my encrypted traffic would not be okay. I would be okay with them knowing I visited the banking site on company time (if I used their equipment, their DNS, etc) but not with decrypting the SSL encrypted data I'm exchanging with the bank or obtaining it in some other way such as a keylogger. Though again, I'd probably avoid the issue entirely by using my own device and data connection if I didn't trust my employer. (I'm a bit spoiled, working in IT: I'd probably know if my employer was doing shady things with the data)

deleted 7y ago

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