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There are probably examples (I can think of mentorship), but that would not be common. On "strategic long term decisions", I think this needs clarification. Th

There are probably examples (I can think of mentorship), but that would not be common. On "strategic long term decisions", I think this needs clarification. There are many areas in which such decisions can be made. To give an example, think of a flying airplane. Would you give a power to make "strategic long term decisions" regarding the flight to someone who bothered to go to flight school, ground school and had been certified as a pilot? Or to someone who hadn't done it, but is an excellent politician, people's manager and could mediate conflict well? To give another example, if a conflict between passengers and crew had happened onboard of a flying airplane. Would you prefer a pilot (say, with no political or mediation skills) to stop flying the airplane and engage into the conflict? Or would you prefer a professional people's manager and mediator to step in?

joshuamorton 7y ago
At least where I work, everyone, including ICs is responsible for mentoring new and less senior co-workers. > To give an example, think of a flying airplane. Would you give a power to make "strategic long term decisions" regarding the flight to someone who bothered to go to flight school, ground school and had been certified as a pilot? Or to someone who hadn't done it, but is an excellent politician, people's manager and could mediate conflict well? I don't think this analogy works. The manager decides which routes to fly and ultimately who flies which ones. Presumably some routes are preferable, and there are competing priorities between routes. So the manager picks the routes to fly, addressing external conflict, and then alloctes people to routes, handling any internal conflict. The manager isn't on the plane. The rest of your comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
- dchichkov 7y ago
  You've asked for example of management that doesn't involve politics, I've given mentoring. It's apolitical. There's no reason a whole company couldn't work in that style. There are other styles and other cultures around, different from a style common to big corporations in the states. I'd guess in Japan corporate world you probably can find unique styles that are also apolitical. I'm not sure. I think your analogy works. And it seems that we agree, it'd be stupid for a manager without pilot's training and expert knowledge to make or impact "strategic long term decisions" that impact the flight in a flying airplane. And we likely agree that interference of a manager (who is used to exercise power) will likely make negative impact on rational expert decisions of a pilot. Regarding "strategic long term decisions" outside the airplane - we can just look at the recent example of Boeing debacle with 737 MAX. Again, a good question would be - would the situation be better, if the company board had people that had bothered to go to flight school, ground school and had been certified as pilots?
  - joshuamorton 7y ago
    > You've asked for example of management that doesn't involve politics No, I asked for an example of a management role that was apolitical. There are certainly responsibilities that managers have that aren't political, but someone claimed that people, political, and technical management were different. So I'm intrigued by the idea of a people manager who doesn't handle any political problems. My point is that by virtue of being in charge of people, political arguments become unavoidable. As for your Boeing example, I fail to see what this has to do with managers having to address political issues in the company. It seems like you're having a conversation about how managers should have been ICs at one point which while an interesting discussion, is completely unrelated to anything I've said.
    - dchichkov 7y ago
      I've given example of a management style that seem to be apolitical - mentorship. I don't see why a whole company can't be built with such style. Political problems in that case would be implicitly handled by company culture. Another example could be a family run business, in which family relationships could dominate, rather than politics. I think there are maybe other examples. Can you give an example of unavoidable political problem that people manager unavoidably has to handle?
      - joshuamorton 7y ago
        > Can you give an example of unavoidable political problem that people manager unavoidably has to handle? - Two of your reports want to work on the same project, perhaps because it will look good. There's only enough work for one of them - The team fails to meet an objective. This needs to be addressed, somehow > Political problems in that case would be implicitly handled by company culture Someone(s) still need to make the decisions that align with the culture. Those people are making political decisions, they just have values that help guide the decisions.
        dchichkov 7y ago
        I see. Well, when "reports are attempting to get projects because it would look good", that sounds like "manipulation for short-term personal gain". Not good. I agree, this is a political problem. But it doesn't seem to be unavoidable. Perhaps, increase rewards for long-term gains for the company and remove rewards for short-term personal gains? It just wouldn't happen then? Team failing to meet the objective. I don't see how this is a political problem.

joshuamorton 7y ago

At least where I work, everyone, including ICs is responsible for mentoring new and less senior co-workers. > To give an example, think of a flying airplane. Would you give a power to make "strategic long term decisions" regarding the flight to someone who bothered to go to flight school, ground school and had been certified as a pilot? Or to someone who hadn't done it, but is an excellent politician, people's manager and could mediate conflict well? I don't think this analogy works. The manager decides which routes to fly and ultimately who flies which ones. Presumably some routes are preferable, and there are competing priorities between routes. So the manager picks the routes to fly, addressing external conflict, and then alloctes people to routes, handling any internal conflict. The manager isn't on the plane. The rest of your comment doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

dchichkov 7y ago
You've asked for example of management that doesn't involve politics, I've given mentoring. It's apolitical. There's no reason a whole company couldn't work in that style. There are other styles and other cultures around, different from a style common to big corporations in the states. I'd guess in Japan corporate world you probably can find unique styles that are also apolitical. I'm not sure. I think your analogy works. And it seems that we agree, it'd be stupid for a manager without pilot's training and expert knowledge to make or impact "strategic long term decisions" that impact the flight in a flying airplane. And we likely agree that interference of a manager (who is used to exercise power) will likely make negative impact on rational expert decisions of a pilot. Regarding "strategic long term decisions" outside the airplane - we can just look at the recent example of Boeing debacle with 737 MAX. Again, a good question would be - would the situation be better, if the company board had people that had bothered to go to flight school, ground school and had been certified as pilots?
- joshuamorton 7y ago
  > You've asked for example of management that doesn't involve politics No, I asked for an example of a management role that was apolitical. There are certainly responsibilities that managers have that aren't political, but someone claimed that people, political, and technical management were different. So I'm intrigued by the idea of a people manager who doesn't handle any political problems. My point is that by virtue of being in charge of people, political arguments become unavoidable. As for your Boeing example, I fail to see what this has to do with managers having to address political issues in the company. It seems like you're having a conversation about how managers should have been ICs at one point which while an interesting discussion, is completely unrelated to anything I've said.
  - dchichkov 7y ago
    I've given example of a management style that seem to be apolitical - mentorship. I don't see why a whole company can't be built with such style. Political problems in that case would be implicitly handled by company culture. Another example could be a family run business, in which family relationships could dominate, rather than politics. I think there are maybe other examples. Can you give an example of unavoidable political problem that people manager unavoidably has to handle?
    - joshuamorton 7y ago
      > Can you give an example of unavoidable political problem that people manager unavoidably has to handle? - Two of your reports want to work on the same project, perhaps because it will look good. There's only enough work for one of them - The team fails to meet an objective. This needs to be addressed, somehow > Political problems in that case would be implicitly handled by company culture Someone(s) still need to make the decisions that align with the culture. Those people are making political decisions, they just have values that help guide the decisions.
      - dchichkov 7y ago
        I see. Well, when "reports are attempting to get projects because it would look good", that sounds like "manipulation for short-term personal gain". Not good. I agree, this is a political problem. But it doesn't seem to be unavoidable. Perhaps, increase rewards for long-term gains for the company and remove rewards for short-term personal gains? It just wouldn't happen then? Team failing to meet the objective. I don't see how this is a political problem.