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It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour dr

It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gentrification and probably it will help Brandenburg getting more people to live there, pay taxes, buy property, shop, etc. So far reactions have been neutral to good, which by Berlin standards is an amazing result. I kind of wonder if the decision of bringing the factory to Berlin wasn't based on the amount of software engineering talent that is available, more than the more traditional engineers. In any case, I'm happy about Tesla coming to Germany, interesting times!

mrmonkeyman 7y ago
> It might even attract people from Poland I bet the Berlin people are thrilled.
jillesvangurp 7y ago
I think it makes sense from that angle but also from the angle that Germany is rich grounds for poaching people that are currently working for one of the other big car manufacturers. E.g. VW just opened a huge plant for producing their EVs in Zwickau which would about 300km away. Brandenburg as a state is an interesting. Crucially, it's not the state of Berlin (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). That means access to lots of grants/subsidies and also that they are somewhat shielded from the chaotic governance in Berlin.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- reallydontask 7y ago
  > (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). Is that a more literal translation of Bundesrepublik Deutschland? In English, Germany is normally referred to as Federal Republic of Germany?
  - jillesvangurp 7y ago
    Yes, Germany is a federation of states. I think there are about 16 of them. They have their own governments, elections, etc. A few of those are city states (Berlin, Hamburg,...). Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany The location Tesla picked is just outside of Berlin in the state of Brandenburg.
    - merb 7y ago
      well it's a federation by name, unfortunatly most useful things aren't really as federalist as it should be. that's why some things in germany are somewhat broken. some states want their autonomy, but this autonomy makes some things stupid, like our school politics (which are done by our states) and/or our public transport companies can be operated by states which sometimes just can't work (db is not) germany actually has the same problem as the eu. states want to be as autonomous as possible, no matter the risks. and changes to this are seen as really bad, because people do not like "einheitsbrei".
  - DangerousPie 7y ago
    No, Federal Republic is the correct term (and the literal translation of Bundesrepublik).
    - DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
      A federal republic is a form of federation, so calling Germany a federation of states is not wrong. Neither is calling it a federal republic more correct; just more specific.
      - DangerousPie 7y ago
        The official name is Federal Republic. I have never seen anybody use the term "German Federation" and can't find many references on Google either.
        7y ago
- sho_hn 7y ago
  Mercedes-Benz/Daimler also opened a software company in Berlin ~two years ago (MBition GmbH) that's in fast growth mode.
odiroot 7y ago
> So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Siemens is big in Niedersachsen (e.g. Braunschweig) so it's more about East/West divide.
- DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
  Some background for the non-German readers: Within Germany there's still a very noticeable divide between east and west, with average waegs, for example, being considerably higher in the west. This goes back to the different ways the two regions were managed after WWII. So when a big (and presumably well-paying) company is going to create lots of jobs in the country, whether this is in an eastern or a western state is indeed a very important question. EDIT: Please note though, that it's somewhat controversial how relevant the divide really is these days. Some will tell you it's 90% in peoples heads, others will tell you that there's still a long way to go before we can really call the german reunification complete.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    In socioeconomic terms the north-south divide is much more pronounced than the east-west divide. Politically, east-west is obviously dominant.
    - dx034 7y ago
      That's a bit skewed by the fact that most of Eastern Germany is also part of Northern Germany. I don't doubt that there is a north-south divide, but the industrial divide is still mostly West-East. In Eastern Germany, there was little manufacturing capacity at reunification which still shows effects today. Other parts of Northern Germany have been strongholds of car manufacturing for >50 years (most notably VW and Siemens).
      - Tomte 7y ago
        Well, basically it is because the strong industrial base is in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria.
navigatesol 7y ago
>It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. Like the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo did for New York state?: But according to SolarCity’s financial statements, state officials “quietly issued a series of 10 amendments” to Tesla, allowing the high-tech jobs to become regular positions and requiring just 500 hires within two years -- down from 900. Tesla told Vanity Fair it was still responsible for creating 5,000 jobs, but the timing for the additional jobs has been extended to 10 years after the factory’s completion. SolarCity was the center of the Buffalo Billion corruption probe by federal prosecutors, which last year led to high-profile bribery convictions of several people, including Louis Ciminelli, whose firm won the solar plant construction deal. https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-s-tesla-factory-in-buffalo-failing-to-live-up-to-promises-report-says.html https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...
lnsru 7y ago
It’s interesting what kind of talent one needs for a factory. Engineers? I doubt... These will be simple workers, couple equipment operators with some education. All the blueprints are coming from Tesla’s HQ anyway, so not much engineering needed. There is also Tesla in Germany that does all the engineering: https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/ https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/
- konschubert 7y ago
  I think we shouldn’t underestimate the amount of engineering knowledge needed on-site in a factory as big as this one.
- neuronic 7y ago
  You are thinking of engineering the cars itself. However, in a factory like this, engineering is much more than that. Engineering, maintaining, and improving the factory won't be an exclusive gig from across the Atlantic (+ Great Plains + Rockys). Aside from that, Brandenburg is rich grounds for the other staff a factory needs. You can combine cheaper EU-labor with mid-range jobs very well in Germany. The only thing Tesla could face which it wont like are unions and workers rights because Germans sure won't put up with 100 hour work weeks or similar business practices.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Shows you how bad Brexit is for the UK that Tesla chose Germany over the UK. Maybe like Italy we need reserved seats in the House of Lords for Engineering and STEM peers.
    - Zenst 7y ago
      Do you have any proof that Tesla was going to build a plant in the UK before? Or are you overlooking how Germany has manufacturing and infrastructure more suited to building cars over all other EU members, including the UK!
      - 7y ago
romanovcode 7y ago
Brandenburg is one of the poorest regions in Germany. Berlin as a city brings negative GDP to country. I think they can just get it for (relatively) cheap there and that would be the main reason.
- wcoenen 7y ago
  GDP is comparable to the concept of revenue for a company, which is not the same as profit/loss. Revenue cannot be negative unless the company is charging negative prices. I think what you meant is that Berlin has a net inflow of tax money.
  - nabla9 7y ago
    GDP measures value added (final output). If you want to measure total value of new goods and services you should look at Gross Output (GO). GO includes sales to other industries (intermediate inputs). For example, US GDP is $21 trillion, US GO is $37 trillion.
  - romanovcode 7y ago
    This chart[0] clearly shows that Germany would have +0.2% GDP per capita without Berlin. [0] https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-only-capital-city-in-europe-that-is-a-drag-on-its-countrys-economy/ https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-only-capital-city-in-eur...
    - yorwba 7y ago
      That means the GDP per capita is lower than the country average, not that the GDP contribution is negative and not that getting rid of Berlin would be good for the German economy.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - walterstucco666 7y ago
      How much better would Berlin do, if it wasn't the capital of Germany with all the downsides of it? I'm from Rome, being the center of the national political activity is a net loss for the city.
rf15 7y ago
No, this is bad news; it's a smaller version of the economic bomb/distortion of creating a google campus somewhere. This will be bad for everything from housing up to the general health of startup culture in Berlin. Desperate move by the economically starved Brandenburg. (and of course they won't suffer the consequences)
- mstipetic 7y ago
  The startup culture in Berlin is mediocre at best. I think bringing in proper high tech will be very valuable
  - honestoHeminway 7y ago
    And manufacturing is hightech? They are stuck in the 80s software wisse (PLC and robotics). The real development (embeded system software & hardware) happens in calfiornia anyway.
  - jashmatthews 7y ago
    What do you see it lacking? Berlin already has a lot. Just many of the "startup scene" aren't really aware of stuff like: Mozilla and HPI (Oracle JVM research) doing cutting edge work. Ableton and Native Instruments as world leaders in niche but influential software. Car2Go and Coup with major financial backing from Mercedes and Bosch. Tons of small seed-stage companies funded by the great smaller VCs here. ECB central bank policy pushes a lot of money into startup investment.
    - jashmatthews 7y ago
      Google is now hiring for engineering in Berlin adding to Amazon and Microsoft!
    - mstipetic 7y ago
      Well I am a part of the Berlin startup scene, so I have personal experience there, completing a fundraising attempt myself. I'm not saying there is no tech happening in Berlin, I just don't think that Car2Go and Coup are good examples of startups. They are actually perfect example of the German mentality in investing in startups - fairly secure plays which they can understand. As far as early stage investments companies go, it's not as nice as you make it sound. Have a look at any list of startups and apart from infarm (which is great and I've worked there) and maybe n26, most are ecommerce platform plays and some fintech (of which most are too late to the game). A lot of the people in my network wanting to do something different had to go elsewhere
blablabla123 7y ago
It's definitely positive, although I'm also slightly disappointed. I think the original plan was to build it near Dresden. That would have been quite a signal, but on the other hand it might be good for it to be successful to have it connected with the metropolitan region Berlin/Brandenburg.
- stakhanov 7y ago
  One important difference between Brandenburg and Saxony that I'm guessing may have played a role: There is a component of the corporate tax called "Gewerbesteuer" which, in Brandenburg, is set at city-level and differs widely from city to city, whereas in Saxony it is high across the board. My guess would be that there must have been a mayor somewhere in Brandenburg that made them an offer that no mayor in Saxony could compete with.
  - dx034 7y ago
    It's set at a city/regional level in all of Germany, there are just very few areas that offer very low taxes. Those tend to be close to large cities to get companies to move headquarters out of the city. Hamburg and Frankfurt also have areas with one of the lowest tax rates just outside of city limits (not sure if Munich has one). In the end, I'm not sure if it makes such a big difference, other incentives, land prices and availability of talent probably outweighs this.
    - stakhanov 7y ago
      ...but in the countries of the former east there is barely any variation, whereas in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg and Brandenburg there is massive variation. Also, you'd expect that in the countries of the former east, taxes would be lower to attract more business activity, but the opposite is the case, since those tend to have more left-leaning leadership.
lm28469 7y ago
> which by Berlin standards is an amazing result. They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  I don't see the problem there comrade :-) From comments on here people have been saying the developers are seen as the poor cousins to traditional Engineers.
- adrianN 7y ago
  How is creating highly paid jobs in the city center bad?
  - vianneychevalie 7y ago
    It highly increases rents and thus destroys neighborhoods and communities
  - lm28469 7y ago
    Rent prices doubled since early 2010. Berlin is not mountain view, normal people actually live here and can't afford it anymore.
    - adrianN 7y ago
      Rent prices didn't double because incomes doubled, otherwise people could still afford it. Rent increases because Berlin doesn't build enough affordable housing.
      - lm28469 7y ago
        Also because big corps pay insane amount of money and most companies can't follow, especially in berlin, which is neither a tech nor a financial hub. There isn't a single cause to that but these companies are definitely part of it. If no one could rent these flats they wouldn't be that pricey... There is a lot of affordable housing too, I'm in the process of looking for a flat and a good 30% of them requires a Wohnberechtigungsschein
nonsince 7y ago
I absolutely do not want more tech companies gentrifying Berlin and continuing the encroachment of foreign corporate Neubauten. The amount of berlin for the working class is shrinking by the day and the culture that draws people to this city is being scrubbed out as a result. When the protests inevitably happen, as they did for the Google campus before it, I’ll be standing on the picket line.
- kayoone 7y ago
  It's delusional to think Berlin will forever be the leftist dreamland that it has been for the last 30 years. This change is inevitable and in the end creates value for the city. The problems can be solved in different ways than fighting against tech companies that want to create well paying jobs and pay a lot of taxes. This actually draws a lot of diversity to Berlin, almost none of my friends and coworkers are germans, not even europeans and i love that.

mrmonkeyman 7y ago

> It might even attract people from Poland I bet the Berlin people are thrilled.

jillesvangurp 7y ago

I think it makes sense from that angle but also from the angle that Germany is rich grounds for poaching people that are currently working for one of the other big car manufacturers. E.g. VW just opened a huge plant for producing their EVs in Zwickau which would about 300km away. Brandenburg as a state is an interesting. Crucially, it's not the state of Berlin (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). That means access to lots of grants/subsidies and also that they are somewhat shielded from the chaotic governance in Berlin.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
reallydontask 7y ago
> (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). Is that a more literal translation of Bundesrepublik Deutschland? In English, Germany is normally referred to as Federal Republic of Germany?
- jillesvangurp 7y ago
  Yes, Germany is a federation of states. I think there are about 16 of them. They have their own governments, elections, etc. A few of those are city states (Berlin, Hamburg,...). Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany The location Tesla picked is just outside of Berlin in the state of Brandenburg.
  - merb 7y ago
    well it's a federation by name, unfortunatly most useful things aren't really as federalist as it should be. that's why some things in germany are somewhat broken. some states want their autonomy, but this autonomy makes some things stupid, like our school politics (which are done by our states) and/or our public transport companies can be operated by states which sometimes just can't work (db is not) germany actually has the same problem as the eu. states want to be as autonomous as possible, no matter the risks. and changes to this are seen as really bad, because people do not like "einheitsbrei".
- DangerousPie 7y ago
  No, Federal Republic is the correct term (and the literal translation of Bundesrepublik).
  - DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
    A federal republic is a form of federation, so calling Germany a federation of states is not wrong. Neither is calling it a federal republic more correct; just more specific.
    - DangerousPie 7y ago
      The official name is Federal Republic. I have never seen anybody use the term "German Federation" and can't find many references on Google either.
      - 7y ago
sho_hn 7y ago
Mercedes-Benz/Daimler also opened a software company in Berlin ~two years ago (MBition GmbH) that's in fast growth mode.

odiroot 7y ago

> So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country. Siemens is big in Niedersachsen (e.g. Braunschweig) so it's more about East/West divide.

DarkWiiPlayer 7y ago
Some background for the non-German readers: Within Germany there's still a very noticeable divide between east and west, with average waegs, for example, being considerably higher in the west. This goes back to the different ways the two regions were managed after WWII. So when a big (and presumably well-paying) company is going to create lots of jobs in the country, whether this is in an eastern or a western state is indeed a very important question. EDIT: Please note though, that it's somewhat controversial how relevant the divide really is these days. Some will tell you it's 90% in peoples heads, others will tell you that there's still a long way to go before we can really call the german reunification complete.
- Tomte 7y ago
  In socioeconomic terms the north-south divide is much more pronounced than the east-west divide. Politically, east-west is obviously dominant.
  - dx034 7y ago
    That's a bit skewed by the fact that most of Eastern Germany is also part of Northern Germany. I don't doubt that there is a north-south divide, but the industrial divide is still mostly West-East. In Eastern Germany, there was little manufacturing capacity at reunification which still shows effects today. Other parts of Northern Germany have been strongholds of car manufacturing for >50 years (most notably VW and Siemens).
    - Tomte 7y ago
      Well, basically it is because the strong industrial base is in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria.

navigatesol 7y ago

>It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. Like the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo did for New York state?: But according to SolarCity’s financial statements, state officials “quietly issued a series of 10 amendments” to Tesla, allowing the high-tech jobs to become regular positions and requiring just 500 hires within two years -- down from 900. Tesla told Vanity Fair it was still responsible for creating 5,000 jobs, but the timing for the additional jobs has been extended to 10 years after the factory’s completion. SolarCity was the center of the Buffalo Billion corruption probe by federal prosecutors, which last year led to high-profile bribery convictions of several people, including Louis Ciminelli, whose firm won the solar plant construction deal. https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-s-tesla-factory-in-buffalo-failing-to-live-up-to-promises-report-says.html https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...

lnsru 7y ago

It’s interesting what kind of talent one needs for a factory. Engineers? I doubt... These will be simple workers, couple equipment operators with some education. All the blueprints are coming from Tesla’s HQ anyway, so not much engineering needed. There is also Tesla in Germany that does all the engineering: https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/ https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/

konschubert 7y ago
I think we shouldn’t underestimate the amount of engineering knowledge needed on-site in a factory as big as this one.
neuronic 7y ago
You are thinking of engineering the cars itself. However, in a factory like this, engineering is much more than that. Engineering, maintaining, and improving the factory won't be an exclusive gig from across the Atlantic (+ Great Plains + Rockys). Aside from that, Brandenburg is rich grounds for the other staff a factory needs. You can combine cheaper EU-labor with mid-range jobs very well in Germany. The only thing Tesla could face which it wont like are unions and workers rights because Germans sure won't put up with 100 hour work weeks or similar business practices.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Shows you how bad Brexit is for the UK that Tesla chose Germany over the UK. Maybe like Italy we need reserved seats in the House of Lords for Engineering and STEM peers.
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Do you have any proof that Tesla was going to build a plant in the UK before? Or are you overlooking how Germany has manufacturing and infrastructure more suited to building cars over all other EU members, including the UK!
    - 7y ago

romanovcode 7y ago

Brandenburg is one of the poorest regions in Germany. Berlin as a city brings negative GDP to country. I think they can just get it for (relatively) cheap there and that would be the main reason.

wcoenen 7y ago
GDP is comparable to the concept of revenue for a company, which is not the same as profit/loss. Revenue cannot be negative unless the company is charging negative prices. I think what you meant is that Berlin has a net inflow of tax money.
- nabla9 7y ago
  GDP measures value added (final output). If you want to measure total value of new goods and services you should look at Gross Output (GO). GO includes sales to other industries (intermediate inputs). For example, US GDP is $21 trillion, US GO is $37 trillion.
- romanovcode 7y ago
  This chart[0] clearly shows that Germany would have +0.2% GDP per capita without Berlin. [0] https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-only-capital-city-in-europe-that-is-a-drag-on-its-countrys-economy/ https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-only-capital-city-in-eur...
  - yorwba 7y ago
    That means the GDP per capita is lower than the country average, not that the GDP contribution is negative and not that getting rid of Berlin would be good for the German economy.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - walterstucco666 7y ago
    How much better would Berlin do, if it wasn't the capital of Germany with all the downsides of it? I'm from Rome, being the center of the national political activity is a net loss for the city.

rf15 7y ago

No, this is bad news; it's a smaller version of the economic bomb/distortion of creating a google campus somewhere. This will be bad for everything from housing up to the general health of startup culture in Berlin. Desperate move by the economically starved Brandenburg. (and of course they won't suffer the consequences)

mstipetic 7y ago
The startup culture in Berlin is mediocre at best. I think bringing in proper high tech will be very valuable
- honestoHeminway 7y ago
  And manufacturing is hightech? They are stuck in the 80s software wisse (PLC and robotics). The real development (embeded system software & hardware) happens in calfiornia anyway.
- jashmatthews 7y ago
  What do you see it lacking? Berlin already has a lot. Just many of the "startup scene" aren't really aware of stuff like: Mozilla and HPI (Oracle JVM research) doing cutting edge work. Ableton and Native Instruments as world leaders in niche but influential software. Car2Go and Coup with major financial backing from Mercedes and Bosch. Tons of small seed-stage companies funded by the great smaller VCs here. ECB central bank policy pushes a lot of money into startup investment.
  - jashmatthews 7y ago
    Google is now hiring for engineering in Berlin adding to Amazon and Microsoft!
  - mstipetic 7y ago
    Well I am a part of the Berlin startup scene, so I have personal experience there, completing a fundraising attempt myself. I'm not saying there is no tech happening in Berlin, I just don't think that Car2Go and Coup are good examples of startups. They are actually perfect example of the German mentality in investing in startups - fairly secure plays which they can understand. As far as early stage investments companies go, it's not as nice as you make it sound. Have a look at any list of startups and apart from infarm (which is great and I've worked there) and maybe n26, most are ecommerce platform plays and some fintech (of which most are too late to the game). A lot of the people in my network wanting to do something different had to go elsewhere

blablabla123 7y ago

It's definitely positive, although I'm also slightly disappointed. I think the original plan was to build it near Dresden. That would have been quite a signal, but on the other hand it might be good for it to be successful to have it connected with the metropolitan region Berlin/Brandenburg.

stakhanov 7y ago
One important difference between Brandenburg and Saxony that I'm guessing may have played a role: There is a component of the corporate tax called "Gewerbesteuer" which, in Brandenburg, is set at city-level and differs widely from city to city, whereas in Saxony it is high across the board. My guess would be that there must have been a mayor somewhere in Brandenburg that made them an offer that no mayor in Saxony could compete with.
- dx034 7y ago
  It's set at a city/regional level in all of Germany, there are just very few areas that offer very low taxes. Those tend to be close to large cities to get companies to move headquarters out of the city. Hamburg and Frankfurt also have areas with one of the lowest tax rates just outside of city limits (not sure if Munich has one). In the end, I'm not sure if it makes such a big difference, other incentives, land prices and availability of talent probably outweighs this.
  - stakhanov 7y ago
    ...but in the countries of the former east there is barely any variation, whereas in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg and Brandenburg there is massive variation. Also, you'd expect that in the countries of the former east, taxes would be lower to attract more business activity, but the opposite is the case, since those tend to have more left-leaning leadership.

lm28469 7y ago

> which by Berlin standards is an amazing result. They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
I don't see the problem there comrade :-) From comments on here people have been saying the developers are seen as the poor cousins to traditional Engineers.
adrianN 7y ago
How is creating highly paid jobs in the city center bad?
- vianneychevalie 7y ago
  It highly increases rents and thus destroys neighborhoods and communities
- lm28469 7y ago
  Rent prices doubled since early 2010. Berlin is not mountain view, normal people actually live here and can't afford it anymore.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    Rent prices didn't double because incomes doubled, otherwise people could still afford it. Rent increases because Berlin doesn't build enough affordable housing.
    - lm28469 7y ago
      Also because big corps pay insane amount of money and most companies can't follow, especially in berlin, which is neither a tech nor a financial hub. There isn't a single cause to that but these companies are definitely part of it. If no one could rent these flats they wouldn't be that pricey... There is a lot of affordable housing too, I'm in the process of looking for a flat and a good 30% of them requires a Wohnberechtigungsschein

nonsince 7y ago

I absolutely do not want more tech companies gentrifying Berlin and continuing the encroachment of foreign corporate Neubauten. The amount of berlin for the working class is shrinking by the day and the culture that draws people to this city is being scrubbed out as a result. When the protests inevitably happen, as they did for the Google campus before it, I’ll be standing on the picket line.

kayoone 7y ago
It's delusional to think Berlin will forever be the leftist dreamland that it has been for the last 30 years. This change is inevitable and in the end creates value for the city. The problems can be solved in different ways than fighting against tech companies that want to create well paying jobs and pay a lot of taxes. This actually draws a lot of diversity to Berlin, almost none of my friends and coworkers are germans, not even europeans and i love that.