8 ms·

I've liked many things about Google over the years and I still admire many parts of their stack. But this crazy internal political culture is bound to end in a

I've liked many things about Google over the years and I still admire many parts of their stack. But this crazy internal political culture is bound to end in a big kaboom and it looks like this might be it. Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. Google has skirted this rule for some time but now it's not going to be pretty.

dustingetz 7y ago
seems less about Google and more about the balance of power shifting towards tech workers over the tech employer
- thephyber 7y ago
  It does seem like highly-valued engineering talent can get away with more than other commodity office workers. It also feels like many tech companies actively advertise "to millennials" by advertising that their culture is the kind of place at which "you want to work". When that company/mission starts to lose its polish[1], it becomes harder to recruit for that talent[2]. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/inside-google-three-years-misery-happiest-company-tech/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-google-three-years-misery... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/facebook-has-struggled-to-recruit-since-cambridge-analytica-scandal.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/facebook-has-struggled-to-re...
- underpand 7y ago
  Unfortunately, it's mostly non-eng and colorful SREs who are representing the supposed "tech worker" in these politically charged movements if you cross-reference the names that appear in public articles with LinkedIn profiles.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    What makes those types of people less necessary tech workers than other types of tech workers?
ahelwer 7y ago
> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business This 'rule' is a purely artificial construct encouraged to ensure the common employees keep their heads down and let those in charge continue screwing over them and/or society. The history of organized labor involves no less than straight murder of labor activists by company owners.
- roenxi 7y ago
  Not really, the politics rule is more because in a reasonably diverse workforce will have supporters of all sorts of stupid ideas and it is not fruitful to have people arguing about them on company time. There is a lot of tension in labour relations but no-politics-in-the-workplace philosophies cover a lot more than that.
- zdragnar 7y ago
  There is no good faith argument here that can paint with so broad a brush; organized labor is also not free from extreme acts of violence and extortion.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Yeah, no. I broadly agree with the what many activists at tech companies are supporting, but think that its deliberate attempts to make the workplace more political are unproductive or backfiring. When it gets to the point that a significant percentage of employees are feigning or exaggerating support for political positions to fit in, you have a problem. And the tech companies I've worked at in the SF Bay Area for the last four years have been in that position.
  - rtpg 7y ago
    fighting against the creation of a union is just as a political act as trying to create one (as an example). Saying "oh we should keep the office apolitical by not having a union" is a political act. Saying "oh we shouldn't complain about the kind of customers our emplyoer has" is a political act. Acting in opposition to political acts is in itself a political act. The apolitical thing to do would be to _not intervene in others' political processes_. If mgmt let its employees organize labor actions with the same willingness as a movie night, then they would be acting apolitically.
Pfhreak 7y ago
> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. This works until you must, by necessity, either mix work and politics or suffer some indignity. Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Unfortunately, for many folks politics at work is a reality whether they want them to be or not, just because of who they are.
- flukus 7y ago
  > Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Yep all politics. As political issues they should be dealt with in the political arena of whichever branch of government is responsible. If you strongly believe in these rights and priveleges you'd be spending your time advocating for universal access to them. Doing it on a per company basis is ineffective and selfish, there will always be a race to the bottom and it gives your competitors an advantage.
  - Pfhreak 7y ago
    Companies should only do the minimum required by law? We only win if everyone gets the benefit? I disagree, you are making perfect the enemy of good. The only solution is not "make the government mandate the solution".
    - flukus 7y ago
      > Companies should only do the minimum required by law? Whether they should or not is irrelevant, it's what they do. Companies com and go, companies that spend more than they have to tend to go faster, employers change even more frequently. Do you want to put up this fight every time you change employers? Do you want to be stuck at one employer because changing jobs means losing benefits? > We only win if everyone gets the benefit? I don't consider getting these benefits for the privileged few with job mobility to be much of a win. Even for them it's probably not a long term win. > The only solution is not "make the government mandate the solution". It's not the only solution just the best solution, more unionization would be another solution that's way better than a piecemeal company by company approach though. The government solution also offers up some much better alternatives in cases like healthcare.
thephyber 7y ago
> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. I don't know anything about what's happening at Google, but this either involves some talented mental gymnastics or it's obviously false. Places of business have politics. Always have, always will. Internal politics and very frequently most companies involve themselves in local/state/national/international politics. - Joining a chamber of commerce or a trade organization is participating in politics. - Having a PR campaign or a lobbyist which affects public attitudes or legislation is politics. - Sponsored an ice rink in the middle of small town Texas[1] (hint: it's a symbol that the company, even though it is based in South Korea, depends very much on the good will of jurors and judges in that smallish town). What's happening at multiple tech giants is that traditionally the sway in company-politics remains within the board and a few key org units (PR, governmental outreach, legal, etc). The differentiators now are: - high quality talent is scarce (hence all of the famous Yahoo/Google/Facebook/etc perks for engineers), - the transparency of associations[2][3], - the political climate of associations (eg. [4][5]), and - boycotts (of many forms) can hurt the bottom dollar[6]. Sometimes it has the opposite effect[7]. Let's not pretend like Google is unique nor that businesses have a strict "Chinese Wall" between politics and business. As Mitt Romney said, "Businesses are people", and politics exists because people are people. [1] https://ipcloseup.com/2015/02/25/for-samsung-charity-begins-at-home-marshall-texas/ https://ipcloseup.com/2015/02/25/for-samsung-charity-begins-... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/facebook-employees-reportedly-outraged-at-exec-at-kavanaugh-hearing.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/facebook-employees-reportedl... [3] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... [4] https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/harvard-professor-ron-sullivan-weinstein-video/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/harvard-professor-ron-sull... [5] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/08/14/charlottesville-white-nationalist-demonstrator-fired-from-libertarian-hot-dog-shop/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/08/14/charl... [6] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/inside-the-bill-oreilly-advertiser-boycott-127520/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/insi... [7] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/business/nike-reports-double-digit-profit-growth-after-colin-kaepernick-controversy https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/business/nike-reports-dou...
thundergolfer 7y ago
> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. "Evolution has"? Are you invoking evo-psych to say politics and business don't mix. It's really quite amazing how the dominant corporate ideology has become so invisible that people think that by going to work and doing whatever your boss says to do is somehow devoid of political involvement. Pretending "business" has nothing to do with politics is absurd. You can only believe it if you think corporate capitalism is apolitical.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. You mean, the power of the ruling class has created the rules that ruled class doesn't mix challenging their masters in with their service that is required for their survival. Because politics and business are deeply mixed when you look at the ruling (capitalist) class, your “evolution” rule doesn't apply there. And politics that involve bootlicking for their particular masters is also rewarded in the working class, your “evolution” rule.dorsnt apply there, either. It's only politics that challenges one’s capitalist masters (usually embodied in a corporate employer) that is discouraged.

dustingetz 7y ago

seems less about Google and more about the balance of power shifting towards tech workers over the tech employer

thephyber 7y ago
It does seem like highly-valued engineering talent can get away with more than other commodity office workers. It also feels like many tech companies actively advertise "to millennials" by advertising that their culture is the kind of place at which "you want to work". When that company/mission starts to lose its polish[1], it becomes harder to recruit for that talent[2]. [1] https://www.wired.com/story/inside-google-three-years-misery-happiest-company-tech/ https://www.wired.com/story/inside-google-three-years-misery... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/facebook-has-struggled-to-recruit-since-cambridge-analytica-scandal.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/16/facebook-has-struggled-to-re...
underpand 7y ago
Unfortunately, it's mostly non-eng and colorful SREs who are representing the supposed "tech worker" in these politically charged movements if you cross-reference the names that appear in public articles with LinkedIn profiles.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  What makes those types of people less necessary tech workers than other types of tech workers?

ahelwer 7y ago

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business This 'rule' is a purely artificial construct encouraged to ensure the common employees keep their heads down and let those in charge continue screwing over them and/or society. The history of organized labor involves no less than straight murder of labor activists by company owners.

roenxi 7y ago
Not really, the politics rule is more because in a reasonably diverse workforce will have supporters of all sorts of stupid ideas and it is not fruitful to have people arguing about them on company time. There is a lot of tension in labour relations but no-politics-in-the-workplace philosophies cover a lot more than that.
zdragnar 7y ago
There is no good faith argument here that can paint with so broad a brush; organized labor is also not free from extreme acts of violence and extortion.
manfredo 7y ago
Yeah, no. I broadly agree with the what many activists at tech companies are supporting, but think that its deliberate attempts to make the workplace more political are unproductive or backfiring. When it gets to the point that a significant percentage of employees are feigning or exaggerating support for political positions to fit in, you have a problem. And the tech companies I've worked at in the SF Bay Area for the last four years have been in that position.
- rtpg 7y ago
  fighting against the creation of a union is just as a political act as trying to create one (as an example). Saying "oh we should keep the office apolitical by not having a union" is a political act. Saying "oh we shouldn't complain about the kind of customers our emplyoer has" is a political act. Acting in opposition to political acts is in itself a political act. The apolitical thing to do would be to _not intervene in others' political processes_. If mgmt let its employees organize labor actions with the same willingness as a movie night, then they would be acting apolitically.

Pfhreak 7y ago

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. This works until you must, by necessity, either mix work and politics or suffer some indignity. Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Unfortunately, for many folks politics at work is a reality whether they want them to be or not, just because of who they are.

flukus 7y ago
> Advocating for parental leave? Politics. Mothers rooms? Politics. Prayer rooms? Politics. Trans inclusive health care? Politics. Domestic partner benefits? Politics. Yep all politics. As political issues they should be dealt with in the political arena of whichever branch of government is responsible. If you strongly believe in these rights and priveleges you'd be spending your time advocating for universal access to them. Doing it on a per company basis is ineffective and selfish, there will always be a race to the bottom and it gives your competitors an advantage.
- Pfhreak 7y ago
  Companies should only do the minimum required by law? We only win if everyone gets the benefit? I disagree, you are making perfect the enemy of good. The only solution is not "make the government mandate the solution".
  - flukus 7y ago
    > Companies should only do the minimum required by law? Whether they should or not is irrelevant, it's what they do. Companies com and go, companies that spend more than they have to tend to go faster, employers change even more frequently. Do you want to put up this fight every time you change employers? Do you want to be stuck at one employer because changing jobs means losing benefits? > We only win if everyone gets the benefit? I don't consider getting these benefits for the privileged few with job mobility to be much of a win. Even for them it's probably not a long term win. > The only solution is not "make the government mandate the solution". It's not the only solution just the best solution, more unionization would be another solution that's way better than a piecemeal company by company approach though. The government solution also offers up some much better alternatives in cases like healthcare.

thephyber 7y ago

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. I don't know anything about what's happening at Google, but this either involves some talented mental gymnastics or it's obviously false. Places of business have politics. Always have, always will. Internal politics and very frequently most companies involve themselves in local/state/national/international politics. - Joining a chamber of commerce or a trade organization is participating in politics. - Having a PR campaign or a lobbyist which affects public attitudes or legislation is politics. - Sponsored an ice rink in the middle of small town Texas[1] (hint: it's a symbol that the company, even though it is based in South Korea, depends very much on the good will of jurors and judges in that smallish town). What's happening at multiple tech giants is that traditionally the sway in company-politics remains within the board and a few key org units (PR, governmental outreach, legal, etc). The differentiators now are: - high quality talent is scarce (hence all of the famous Yahoo/Google/Facebook/etc perks for engineers), - the transparency of associations[2][3], - the political climate of associations (eg. [4][5]), and - boycotts (of many forms) can hurt the bottom dollar[6]. Sometimes it has the opposite effect[7]. Let's not pretend like Google is unique nor that businesses have a strict "Chinese Wall" between politics and business. As Mitt Romney said, "Businesses are people", and politics exists because people are people. [1] https://ipcloseup.com/2015/02/25/for-samsung-charity-begins-at-home-marshall-texas/ https://ipcloseup.com/2015/02/25/for-samsung-charity-begins-... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/facebook-employees-reportedly-outraged-at-exec-at-kavanaugh-hearing.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/04/facebook-employees-reportedl... [3] https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... [4] https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/harvard-professor-ron-sullivan-weinstein-video/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/14/us/harvard-professor-ron-sull... [5] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/08/14/charlottesville-white-nationalist-demonstrator-fired-from-libertarian-hot-dog-shop/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/food/wp/2017/08/14/charl... [6] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/inside-the-bill-oreilly-advertiser-boycott-127520/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/insi... [7] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/business/nike-reports-double-digit-profit-growth-after-colin-kaepernick-controversy https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/business/nike-reports-dou...

thundergolfer 7y ago

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. "Evolution has"? Are you invoking evo-psych to say politics and business don't mix. It's really quite amazing how the dominant corporate ideology has become so invisible that people think that by going to work and doing whatever your boss says to do is somehow devoid of political involvement. Pretending "business" has nothing to do with politics is absurd. You can only believe it if you think corporate capitalism is apolitical.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Evolution has created the rules that one doesn't mix politics with business. You mean, the power of the ruling class has created the rules that ruled class doesn't mix challenging their masters in with their service that is required for their survival. Because politics and business are deeply mixed when you look at the ruling (capitalist) class, your “evolution” rule doesn't apply there. And politics that involve bootlicking for their particular masters is also rewarded in the working class, your “evolution” rule.dorsnt apply there, either. It's only politics that challenges one’s capitalist masters (usually embodied in a corporate employer) that is discouraged.