5 ms·

I've tried drawing diagrams with these tools and it seems so much harder for quick drafting than just using pen and paper and also a lot of work to get anything

I've tried drawing diagrams with these tools and it seems so much harder for quick drafting than just using pen and paper and also a lot of work to get anything even remotely good looking (like aligning things or making boxes of the same size, ie performing mass operations). I would like to use a tool where I first describe the relations in text/code and the layouting and formatting is done separately, and formatting should be hierarchical.

gorn 7y ago
You can try mermaid https://mermaidjs.github.io/ https://mermaidjs.github.io/ This was the only tool I could find that would work with version control.
- andybak 7y ago
  That's nice. I can fit most of the syntax in my head (more than be said for Markdown...)
codeulike 7y ago
select multiple objects, go to align tab, select the alignment you want
gatherhunterer 7y ago
> it seems so much harder for quick drafting than just using pen and paper I don’t consider that a reasonable criticism. Of course using pen and paper is quicker and easier. The advantage of any digital format is that it is distributable, universally readable and persistent.
- adriand 7y ago
  Not to mention changeable! The ability to erase items, or to rearrange your diagram (and to have the lines between items automatically reflow) is another key reason to use a digital format.
- dta5003 7y ago
  And editable! Last time I drew a sequence diagram on a whiteboard I instinctively tried to drag and drop a box to another location. I was sorely disappointed.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  It's also possible to have both. I have a "smart pen" that saves anything I write as a PDF on my phone that can be searched and stored where I choose (including cloud services). The downside is that you have to write on special paper or in special notebooks. But it's not as terrible as it sounds because the notebooks are very reasonably priced. It also works as an actual pen.
  - ska 7y ago
    These are pretty useful as a note taking tool personally, and avoid scanning etc. I've never converted over but have had colleagues use them exclusively. PDF's are a terminal format though, and doesn't really meet the need of a persistent, editable, graphic format for diagrams.
- hota_mazi 7y ago
  Would be nice to have both: draw on pen and paper and then use some "OCR" (wouldn't be called that obviously) to turn a screen shot of your paper into a digital file.
hajimuz 7y ago
You mean something like graph easy?
bdamm 7y ago
You may like websequencediagrams.com The site is only for sequence diagrams “swim lanes” but at that task I’ve found nothing better. I love describing the relationships textually and then selecting the best style for the job. Many tools fail at basic style annotation so I can abstract the style. Even that would be an improvement for drawing diagrams.
dlhavema 7y ago
I primarilly use Gliffy cause it is built into confluence, but whenever it is not available, I go right to draw.io. Its a pretty cool tool for this.
- penguin_booze 7y ago
  Well, they're not "built in" to Confluence, but are plugins. So can draw.io.
harrygeez 7y ago
it's very nice if you have to, e.g. for university courses. draw.io is a much nicer than let's say, Visual Paradigm
- davidjgraph 7y ago
  Fun fact, Visual Paradigm Online is draw.io under the hood, https://online.visual-paradigm.com/diagrams/ https://online.visual-paradigm.com/diagrams/
- innocenat 7y ago
  While I agree that draw.io is nicer, personally I find Visual Paradigm to get job done faster due to the amount of autocomplete it provided. It not easy getting started, I will admit. I have only used Visual Paradigm in university though.
woobar 7y ago
> like aligning things or making boxes of the same size Did you actually try this tool? it makes mass aligning/resizing extremely easy. For instance, to change dimensions of multiple elements you just select them and then type desired width/height. It is also has pretty standard arrange and distribute controls.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  I have used it. I'll make a comparison. Google draw has a feature that provides immediate visual feedback when you select multiple objects and then resize the group. Everything is resized at once.
Jestar342 7y ago
Mermaid.js[1] can be used within some markdown parsers. I use it all the time for recording sequence diagrams, logic flows, architecture charts. I use it all off-line, in vscode with various plugins, though mermaid was made for web. [1]https://mermaidjs.github.io/ https://mermaidjs.github.io/
ivalm 7y ago
When I first tried drawio I also felt slightly clunky, but after a few hours of use I fell in love. Now most of diagrams I make (to share with others) I make in draw.io
dan1234 7y ago
I’ve used PlantText[0] in the past, which is a text based UML editor. It’s useful if you want to track changes (just add the source to version control). [0]https://www.planttext.com https://www.planttext.com
hatmatrix 7y ago
I have been using yed for a while now - I don't think it exports to PDF well (not all elements are editable) BUT it is hierarchical and has some tools for automatically laying out your elements. Overall I have found it to be great for flowcharts and diagramming (atrocious was of default colors aside...) - I liked it more than draw.io when I compared them several years ago. You can download and use yed for free - I think their business model is that you pay for integration with other tools. It's not open source though.
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I'm a long-time yEd user. I think its secret sauce is the incredible time and effort its creators put into its automatic layout algorithms. I have yet to see anything else that matches it in that respect. In particular, yEd is what I would call critical for quickly generating easily readable dependency diagrams with more than, say, 50 elements. The heirarchical layout supports octilinear edge routing (like subway diagrams), which makes resulting layouts readable even with hundreds or thousands of elements. Also, I have printed out large yEd dependency diagrams on a plotter -- so if you can "print to PDF" (like on a Mac or a recent Windows version), generating a PDF should be simple. I just counted the number of options available on the "hierarchical" layout. This isn't a competition, but it does give you an idea of how thoroughly their developers built it: there are 51 configurable options. And in addition to "heirarchical", there are 19 other automatic layout types available, each with their own options. Additionally, yEd's native file format is graphml, which is an open standard and can be generated programmatically.

gorn 7y ago

You can try mermaid https://mermaidjs.github.io/ https://mermaidjs.github.io/ This was the only tool I could find that would work with version control.

andybak 7y ago
That's nice. I can fit most of the syntax in my head (more than be said for Markdown...)

codeulike 7y ago

select multiple objects, go to align tab, select the alignment you want

gatherhunterer 7y ago

> it seems so much harder for quick drafting than just using pen and paper I don’t consider that a reasonable criticism. Of course using pen and paper is quicker and easier. The advantage of any digital format is that it is distributable, universally readable and persistent.

adriand 7y ago
Not to mention changeable! The ability to erase items, or to rearrange your diagram (and to have the lines between items automatically reflow) is another key reason to use a digital format.
dta5003 7y ago
And editable! Last time I drew a sequence diagram on a whiteboard I instinctively tried to drag and drop a box to another location. I was sorely disappointed.
reaperducer 7y ago
It's also possible to have both. I have a "smart pen" that saves anything I write as a PDF on my phone that can be searched and stored where I choose (including cloud services). The downside is that you have to write on special paper or in special notebooks. But it's not as terrible as it sounds because the notebooks are very reasonably priced. It also works as an actual pen.
- ska 7y ago
  These are pretty useful as a note taking tool personally, and avoid scanning etc. I've never converted over but have had colleagues use them exclusively. PDF's are a terminal format though, and doesn't really meet the need of a persistent, editable, graphic format for diagrams.
hota_mazi 7y ago
Would be nice to have both: draw on pen and paper and then use some "OCR" (wouldn't be called that obviously) to turn a screen shot of your paper into a digital file.

hajimuz 7y ago

You mean something like graph easy?

bdamm 7y ago

You may like websequencediagrams.com The site is only for sequence diagrams “swim lanes” but at that task I’ve found nothing better. I love describing the relationships textually and then selecting the best style for the job. Many tools fail at basic style annotation so I can abstract the style. Even that would be an improvement for drawing diagrams.

dlhavema 7y ago

I primarilly use Gliffy cause it is built into confluence, but whenever it is not available, I go right to draw.io. Its a pretty cool tool for this.

penguin_booze 7y ago
Well, they're not "built in" to Confluence, but are plugins. So can draw.io.

harrygeez 7y ago

it's very nice if you have to, e.g. for university courses. draw.io is a much nicer than let's say, Visual Paradigm

davidjgraph 7y ago
Fun fact, Visual Paradigm Online is draw.io under the hood, https://online.visual-paradigm.com/diagrams/ https://online.visual-paradigm.com/diagrams/
innocenat 7y ago
While I agree that draw.io is nicer, personally I find Visual Paradigm to get job done faster due to the amount of autocomplete it provided. It not easy getting started, I will admit. I have only used Visual Paradigm in university though.

woobar 7y ago

> like aligning things or making boxes of the same size Did you actually try this tool? it makes mass aligning/resizing extremely easy. For instance, to change dimensions of multiple elements you just select them and then type desired width/height. It is also has pretty standard arrange and distribute controls.

Gravityloss 7y ago
I have used it. I'll make a comparison. Google draw has a feature that provides immediate visual feedback when you select multiple objects and then resize the group. Everything is resized at once.

Jestar342 7y ago

Mermaid.js[1] can be used within some markdown parsers. I use it all the time for recording sequence diagrams, logic flows, architecture charts. I use it all off-line, in vscode with various plugins, though mermaid was made for web. [1]https://mermaidjs.github.io/ https://mermaidjs.github.io/

ivalm 7y ago

When I first tried drawio I also felt slightly clunky, but after a few hours of use I fell in love. Now most of diagrams I make (to share with others) I make in draw.io

dan1234 7y ago

I’ve used PlantText[0] in the past, which is a text based UML editor. It’s useful if you want to track changes (just add the source to version control). [0]https://www.planttext.com https://www.planttext.com

hatmatrix 7y ago

I have been using yed for a while now - I don't think it exports to PDF well (not all elements are editable) BUT it is hierarchical and has some tools for automatically laying out your elements. Overall I have found it to be great for flowcharts and diagramming (atrocious was of default colors aside...) - I liked it more than draw.io when I compared them several years ago. You can download and use yed for free - I think their business model is that you pay for integration with other tools. It's not open source though.

TimTheTinker 7y ago
I'm a long-time yEd user. I think its secret sauce is the incredible time and effort its creators put into its automatic layout algorithms. I have yet to see anything else that matches it in that respect. In particular, yEd is what I would call critical for quickly generating easily readable dependency diagrams with more than, say, 50 elements. The heirarchical layout supports octilinear edge routing (like subway diagrams), which makes resulting layouts readable even with hundreds or thousands of elements. Also, I have printed out large yEd dependency diagrams on a plotter -- so if you can "print to PDF" (like on a Mac or a recent Windows version), generating a PDF should be simple. I just counted the number of options available on the "hierarchical" layout. This isn't a competition, but it does give you an idea of how thoroughly their developers built it: there are 51 configurable options. And in addition to "heirarchical", there are 19 other automatic layout types available, each with their own options. Additionally, yEd's native file format is graphml, which is an open standard and can be generated programmatically.