4 ms·

If the overhead of keeping an entire real-world manufacture & sales operation secret over the long-term is less than the overhead of simply paying taxes, then s

If the overhead of keeping an entire real-world manufacture & sales operation secret over the long-term is less than the overhead of simply paying taxes, then something is seriously wrong with the taxes.

pjc50 7y ago
Remember that it's still federally illegal, which has all sorts of awkward consequences for structuring the business. It may be difficult or impossible to get a bank account, for example.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  This has not been an issue for awhile. Most places take debit cards. In Colorado, there is a chain that takes actual credit cards.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    'Most places take debit cards. In Colorado, there is a chain that takes actual credit cards.' Again... not true, at least not in a legal sense. What Industry do you work in? Yes, they accept debit cards, but they function on a whack-a-mole model. There are only a handful of Startups, one actually a YC backed company, operating out of CA that do so, but other than its done under the guise of other businesses. Most have several bank accounts setup in different entities to keep that alive, all of which are subject to confiscation and withholding of funds which compound the cost of doing business. What's even more skewed is how some players in this space get access to banking but most do not; case in point, Helping Hands in Boulder, CO. The owner, colloquially known as Crypto Mom in our circles, has access to banking but still explores other options by accepting Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies. Her situation is VERY unique, but her son became a LN developer in the process, too, which was a funny caveat.
callmeal 7y ago
If by "real-world manufacture & sales operation" you mean an operation where there can be no guarantees of the quality of ingredients and processing/storage, you would be right. Like some pesticides or mold with your bud? How about some vitamin e in your vape juice? Those taxes pay for something, and as a consumer I want to know I'm getting what I paid for and nothing more. We will see a lot these articles ranting against California taxes in the lead up to the elections by the conservative media because they are beginning to hate how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to provide services. Don't forget that almost all the social progress we're seeing in this country is from that state.
- thrower123 7y ago
  California sure can wag the rest of the dog. > how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to provide service This is surely a joke, however, right?
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    No really, some people actually think Californian government institutions and politicians are doing a good job, but being undermined by forces outside their control. It is ludicrous, but you can tell if somebody has remained in California, they like the taste of boot, and in many parts of California, boot covered in human faeces.
    - callmeal 7y ago
      >No really, some people actually think Californian government institutions and politicians are doing a good job, but being undermined by forces outside their control. The truth is probably somewhere in between. There are just as many good people working in government institutions as there are people who're there on the corporate merry-go-round. And ignoring the fact that yes, the good people are being undermined (whether deliberately or through inaction/inattention) is not conducive to finding solutions to these problems. See this for instance: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Homeless-patients-bused-from-Las-Vegas-mental-12771252.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Homeless-patients-bus...
mc32 7y ago
That doesn’t make any sense. Lots of people could make OTC medicines in their basements at much lower costs than regulated pharma. Doesn’t mean regulation and taxation of pharma is overbearing. I mean that’s the whole proposition of black markets, to subvert the state.
avs733 7y ago
As a counterpoint, lots of high school / college students do a chemistry lab where they produce acetaminophin. I'll bet that is a way cheaper unit price than if it were produced in a regulatory compliant factory. Not all of the costs in manufacture/sales are taxes and almost all of the regulatory costs are build on the backs of death or harm to people.
- undersuit 7y ago
  Exactly, the student isn't even paying for the use of the location, just like the illegal grows.
ohithereyou 7y ago
I believe the taxes are functioning as intended. The entire reason California legalized marijunana wasn't some high minded criminal justice reform, and they certainly did not want to remove a tool for social control from the use of law enforcement. Legalized marijuana was to pacify white, rich pot smokers. It was never the intent of California to encorage the use of marijuana, to make it avaliable at a lower price than the illegal market, or to allow non-white, non-rich people to benefit from its sale and use.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  Sadly this is truer than anything else I've seen in this thread, as CA had a really good program in place. Medical MJ cards were easy to acquire, dispensaries were plentiful, quality was always rather good due to the decades of good genetics and breeding etc... But, they saw the obvious cash grab and decided to move forward with it all costs to pacify their main voting constituency. Some good intentioned people may have played a part in trying to get to where it is, but I think it was mainly to consolidate Market Share for a mega corp to take it over.

pjc50 7y ago

Remember that it's still federally illegal, which has all sorts of awkward consequences for structuring the business. It may be difficult or impossible to get a bank account, for example.

dillonmckay 7y ago
This has not been an issue for awhile. Most places take debit cards. In Colorado, there is a chain that takes actual credit cards.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  'Most places take debit cards. In Colorado, there is a chain that takes actual credit cards.' Again... not true, at least not in a legal sense. What Industry do you work in? Yes, they accept debit cards, but they function on a whack-a-mole model. There are only a handful of Startups, one actually a YC backed company, operating out of CA that do so, but other than its done under the guise of other businesses. Most have several bank accounts setup in different entities to keep that alive, all of which are subject to confiscation and withholding of funds which compound the cost of doing business. What's even more skewed is how some players in this space get access to banking but most do not; case in point, Helping Hands in Boulder, CO. The owner, colloquially known as Crypto Mom in our circles, has access to banking but still explores other options by accepting Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies. Her situation is VERY unique, but her son became a LN developer in the process, too, which was a funny caveat.

callmeal 7y ago

If by "real-world manufacture & sales operation" you mean an operation where there can be no guarantees of the quality of ingredients and processing/storage, you would be right. Like some pesticides or mold with your bud? How about some vitamin e in your vape juice? Those taxes pay for something, and as a consumer I want to know I'm getting what I paid for and nothing more. We will see a lot these articles ranting against California taxes in the lead up to the elections by the conservative media because they are beginning to hate how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to provide services. Don't forget that almost all the social progress we're seeing in this country is from that state.

thrower123 7y ago
California sure can wag the rest of the dog. > how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to provide service This is surely a joke, however, right?
- microcolonel 7y ago
  No really, some people actually think Californian government institutions and politicians are doing a good job, but being undermined by forces outside their control. It is ludicrous, but you can tell if somebody has remained in California, they like the taste of boot, and in many parts of California, boot covered in human faeces.
  - callmeal 7y ago
    >No really, some people actually think Californian government institutions and politicians are doing a good job, but being undermined by forces outside their control. The truth is probably somewhere in between. There are just as many good people working in government institutions as there are people who're there on the corporate merry-go-round. And ignoring the fact that yes, the good people are being undermined (whether deliberately or through inaction/inattention) is not conducive to finding solutions to these problems. See this for instance: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Homeless-patients-bused-from-Las-Vegas-mental-12771252.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Homeless-patients-bus...

mc32 7y ago

That doesn’t make any sense. Lots of people could make OTC medicines in their basements at much lower costs than regulated pharma. Doesn’t mean regulation and taxation of pharma is overbearing. I mean that’s the whole proposition of black markets, to subvert the state.

avs733 7y ago

As a counterpoint, lots of high school / college students do a chemistry lab where they produce acetaminophin. I'll bet that is a way cheaper unit price than if it were produced in a regulatory compliant factory. Not all of the costs in manufacture/sales are taxes and almost all of the regulatory costs are build on the backs of death or harm to people.

undersuit 7y ago
Exactly, the student isn't even paying for the use of the location, just like the illegal grows.

ohithereyou 7y ago

I believe the taxes are functioning as intended. The entire reason California legalized marijunana wasn't some high minded criminal justice reform, and they certainly did not want to remove a tool for social control from the use of law enforcement. Legalized marijuana was to pacify white, rich pot smokers. It was never the intent of California to encorage the use of marijuana, to make it avaliable at a lower price than the illegal market, or to allow non-white, non-rich people to benefit from its sale and use.

Melting_Harps 7y ago
Sadly this is truer than anything else I've seen in this thread, as CA had a really good program in place. Medical MJ cards were easy to acquire, dispensaries were plentiful, quality was always rather good due to the decades of good genetics and breeding etc... But, they saw the obvious cash grab and decided to move forward with it all costs to pacify their main voting constituency. Some good intentioned people may have played a part in trying to get to where it is, but I think it was mainly to consolidate Market Share for a mega corp to take it over.