7 ms·

Spaniard here. I don't think I've ever read or heard a sugarcoated version of the conquest. In fact it's usually the opposite. October 12 is indeed the day Col

by werpon 7y ago

Spaniard here. I don't think I've ever read or heard a sugarcoated version of the conquest. In fact it's usually the opposite. October 12 is indeed the day Columbus set foot on the New World and also our national holiday, but I fail to see how it's different from other holidays such as Thanksgiving.

lentil_soup 7y ago
I don't think Thanksgiving is comparable. Spain celebrating the 12th of October as its national day is as if England celebrated Thanksgiving as its own national day.
- willvarfar 7y ago
  I don't understand why Thanksgiving is celebrated at all. Its a bunch of religious bigots who left England for Holland because England was too religiously tolerant. They then had to leave Holland because they felt threatened by the fact that their children didn't want to continue their religion and were 'going native'. So they head off to the English colonies in America where they settle land cleared of native Indians by the plague. Half of them then die, and then the next year one of the pilgrim's many 'thanksgivings' is for the harvest. After the revolution, Washington is petitioned to make it a holiday, although its not on the current day. Jefferson, for example, rallied against it. So why celebrate thanksgiving again? Why celebrate the 'pilgrim fathers' in school? Why? England's national day doesn't make sense through a modern lens either. Its generally believed that, if Saint George existed, he was a lowly Greek soldier from modern-day Turkey. We can speculate what the dragon might actually have been, except that story doesn't seem to turn up until later. The Catholic Saint George was executed by a Roman emperor for refusing to worship pagan gods... and this is related to England in what way? Technically that goes back to King Richard praying to him on a crusade or something. Then again, you stop someone in the English street and ask them why Saint George is the patron saint, or why, and they have not a clue! Don't get me started on Christmas! If we had to justify every holiday and explain how it still makes any sense to celebrate it or whoever it originally venerated, then we'd have no holidays at all! :)
  - madengr 7y ago
    Thanksgiving is now about overeating and shopping. Wonder what it will be about 100 years from now.
  - dan_mctree 7y ago
    Considering the Dutch connection. Thanksgiving may've just been a continuation of the Dutch dankdag/Thanksday, which is a small protestant celebration thanking God for the harvest. They do that every year, regardless of the circumstances, and it kind of sounds like they just continued that practice. Harvest festivals in general were common throughout Europe and many immigrants would be familiar with them, so it's not very surprising that at least one version of it would survive.
  - soylentcola 7y ago
    Regardless of the specific framing of Thanksgiving, it seems like lots of cultures have some sort of seasonal harvest feast or festival (at least those originating in climates that support a seasonal planting/harvesting cycle). I won't lie. Even though I'm a city dweller far removed from that agrarian lifestyle, I have zero problem with a nice yearly feast with friends and family. That aspect has a universal appeal I think.
  - senorjazz 7y ago
    I had always assumed Thanks Giving was similar to the Harvest Festival celebrated in (at least) England (and assumed other parts of UK). Just being thankful for a good harvest.
  - hindsightbias 7y ago
    They "founded" America and their values persist into modern day in one form or another. We will always have a puritan(ical) streak.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > They "founded" America No, they didn't, either in fact or tradition. We have a set of people honored as founders, and it's not the Pilgrims.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
darkwater 7y ago
Err, because the American continent IS NOT Spain, nor part of it? Because the current Spain state should not celebrate what a previous empire conquered? Still celebrating the national day on Oct 12th is a complete shame, and let one wonder how is still imperialism inside the Spain way of thinking. Spain national day should be Dec 6th, when the current Constitution was approved.
- spanxx 7y ago
  Another victim of Black Legend...
  - darkwater 7y ago
    Please enlighten me
    - thoughtleader31 7y ago
      The Spanish try to whitewash their atrocities by speaking of a purposeful campaign of defamation from rival powers. So successful it was, apparently, that it made disctinct stories of Spanish brutality materialize in every country in the Americas. The legend of the Black Legend also emphasizes the enlightenment of the Crown's laws regarding the legal status and treatment of indigenous peoples. Unfortunately the rumors spread by the English about the treatment of natives were so convincing, that the Spanish conquistadors and encomenderos also came to believe that they had the right to enslave the indians and create a racial caste system where mestizos would live as serfs for centuries. Or maybe it just was that the laws were never effectively enforced.
      - spanxx 7y ago
        Not true at all. English made propaganda about supposed atrocities and that propaganda is alive today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend
        7y ago
saiya-jin 7y ago
I would be really surprised if you actually got raw version of history as it happened at school. Very few countries actually admit properly their past mistakes (Germany and WWII might be rather an exception). Raw version would be somewhere along the lines of "our ancestors were among the most horrible arrogant ignorant humans that ever lived if measured by the amount of evil done unto the others, and we are deeply ashamed to be their descendants". The fact that you actually celebrate Columbus' discovery as national day strongly indicates against that. I mean, go to places like Potosi in Bolivia to see all the horror and misery caused by spanish slavers. 8 freaking million human beings were basically butchered by spanish just in this one single spot to mine silver to make spain richer. Not that it helped them in long run considering current state of spanish economy.
- spanxx 7y ago
  Do you have any sources of that? Claiming 8 million people were slaved is a bit of stretch, don't you think?
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Literally the first thing that comes from google search of this. Plus they claim this number when you are actually there in their museum dedicated specifically to this horrible part of their history. Visited last year, some 'jobs' around smelting had survivability in mere weeks because of all the toxicity. Plus took a trip quite deep into the mines themselves. Imagine mountain that is almost 4800m high, drilled through like a proper swiss emmental cheese (they claim around 500 different entrances to tunnel system).
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  I'm not saying this excuses anything, but the conquistadors looked at the natives more like smart apes than humans. They literally thought it was their God-given right to hold dominion over the earth and all the animals on it. This level of self-reflection was just not possible at the time (the age of conquest was contemporary with the Spanish Inquisition).
- ankalagon 7y ago
protomyth 7y ago
Well, I'm at a community college on a reservation and we certainly celebrate Thanksgiving but don't take off for Columbus day. So, I would say its viewed rather differently.

by werpon 7y ago

lentil_soup 7y ago

I don't think Thanksgiving is comparable. Spain celebrating the 12th of October as its national day is as if England celebrated Thanksgiving as its own national day.

willvarfar 7y ago
I don't understand why Thanksgiving is celebrated at all. Its a bunch of religious bigots who left England for Holland because England was too religiously tolerant. They then had to leave Holland because they felt threatened by the fact that their children didn't want to continue their religion and were 'going native'. So they head off to the English colonies in America where they settle land cleared of native Indians by the plague. Half of them then die, and then the next year one of the pilgrim's many 'thanksgivings' is for the harvest. After the revolution, Washington is petitioned to make it a holiday, although its not on the current day. Jefferson, for example, rallied against it. So why celebrate thanksgiving again? Why celebrate the 'pilgrim fathers' in school? Why? England's national day doesn't make sense through a modern lens either. Its generally believed that, if Saint George existed, he was a lowly Greek soldier from modern-day Turkey. We can speculate what the dragon might actually have been, except that story doesn't seem to turn up until later. The Catholic Saint George was executed by a Roman emperor for refusing to worship pagan gods... and this is related to England in what way? Technically that goes back to King Richard praying to him on a crusade or something. Then again, you stop someone in the English street and ask them why Saint George is the patron saint, or why, and they have not a clue! Don't get me started on Christmas! If we had to justify every holiday and explain how it still makes any sense to celebrate it or whoever it originally venerated, then we'd have no holidays at all! :)
- madengr 7y ago
  Thanksgiving is now about overeating and shopping. Wonder what it will be about 100 years from now.
- dan_mctree 7y ago
  Considering the Dutch connection. Thanksgiving may've just been a continuation of the Dutch dankdag/Thanksday, which is a small protestant celebration thanking God for the harvest. They do that every year, regardless of the circumstances, and it kind of sounds like they just continued that practice. Harvest festivals in general were common throughout Europe and many immigrants would be familiar with them, so it's not very surprising that at least one version of it would survive.
- soylentcola 7y ago
  Regardless of the specific framing of Thanksgiving, it seems like lots of cultures have some sort of seasonal harvest feast or festival (at least those originating in climates that support a seasonal planting/harvesting cycle). I won't lie. Even though I'm a city dweller far removed from that agrarian lifestyle, I have zero problem with a nice yearly feast with friends and family. That aspect has a universal appeal I think.
- senorjazz 7y ago
  I had always assumed Thanks Giving was similar to the Harvest Festival celebrated in (at least) England (and assumed other parts of UK). Just being thankful for a good harvest.
- hindsightbias 7y ago
  They "founded" America and their values persist into modern day in one form or another. We will always have a puritan(ical) streak.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > They "founded" America No, they didn't, either in fact or tradition. We have a set of people honored as founders, and it's not the Pilgrims.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

darkwater 7y ago

Err, because the American continent IS NOT Spain, nor part of it? Because the current Spain state should not celebrate what a previous empire conquered? Still celebrating the national day on Oct 12th is a complete shame, and let one wonder how is still imperialism inside the Spain way of thinking. Spain national day should be Dec 6th, when the current Constitution was approved.

spanxx 7y ago
Another victim of Black Legend...
- darkwater 7y ago
  Please enlighten me
  - thoughtleader31 7y ago
    The Spanish try to whitewash their atrocities by speaking of a purposeful campaign of defamation from rival powers. So successful it was, apparently, that it made disctinct stories of Spanish brutality materialize in every country in the Americas. The legend of the Black Legend also emphasizes the enlightenment of the Crown's laws regarding the legal status and treatment of indigenous peoples. Unfortunately the rumors spread by the English about the treatment of natives were so convincing, that the Spanish conquistadors and encomenderos also came to believe that they had the right to enslave the indians and create a racial caste system where mestizos would live as serfs for centuries. Or maybe it just was that the laws were never effectively enforced.
    - spanxx 7y ago
      Not true at all. English made propaganda about supposed atrocities and that propaganda is alive today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend
      - 7y ago

saiya-jin 7y ago

I would be really surprised if you actually got raw version of history as it happened at school. Very few countries actually admit properly their past mistakes (Germany and WWII might be rather an exception). Raw version would be somewhere along the lines of "our ancestors were among the most horrible arrogant ignorant humans that ever lived if measured by the amount of evil done unto the others, and we are deeply ashamed to be their descendants". The fact that you actually celebrate Columbus' discovery as national day strongly indicates against that. I mean, go to places like Potosi in Bolivia to see all the horror and misery caused by spanish slavers. 8 freaking million human beings were basically butchered by spanish just in this one single spot to mine silver to make spain richer. Not that it helped them in long run considering current state of spanish economy.

spanxx 7y ago
Do you have any sources of that? Claiming 8 million people were slaved is a bit of stretch, don't you think?
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Literally the first thing that comes from google search of this. Plus they claim this number when you are actually there in their museum dedicated specifically to this horrible part of their history. Visited last year, some 'jobs' around smelting had survivability in mere weeks because of all the toxicity. Plus took a trip quite deep into the mines themselves. Imagine mountain that is almost 4800m high, drilled through like a proper swiss emmental cheese (they claim around 500 different entrances to tunnel system).
wayoutthere 7y ago
I'm not saying this excuses anything, but the conquistadors looked at the natives more like smart apes than humans. They literally thought it was their God-given right to hold dominion over the earth and all the animals on it. This level of self-reflection was just not possible at the time (the age of conquest was contemporary with the Spanish Inquisition).
ankalagon 7y ago

protomyth 7y ago

Well, I'm at a community college on a reservation and we certainly celebrate Thanksgiving but don't take off for Columbus day. So, I would say its viewed rather differently.