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Because it makes the Conquistadors' conquests of the New World seem more appetising? Because it downplays the indiscriminate conquering of the Americas? Spain
by Svip 7y ago
Because it makes the Conquistadors' conquests of the New World seem more appetising? Because it downplays the indiscriminate conquering of the Americas?
Spain commemorates the day Columbus discovered America as its national day, as it ushered in a golden age for Spain, which is true enough. But with the atrocities inflicted by Spain (along with the other European powers) on the natives in the New World, it may have become harder to feel that such a moment should be celebrated.
And tales that the Aztecs simply handed their lands to the Spanish, rather than the Spanish conquering it, may help people feel a little less weary about the celebration.
But I am merely speculation. Plenty of retelling of history tends to decorate it as best possible (or omit the bad parts) for our side. In much the same fashion, I'd imagine Austrian history classes simply stops in 1866.
- vkizl 7y agoMight is right, sorry buddy.
- zwirbl 7y ago> I'd imagine Austrian history classes simply stops in 1866 Nope, it goes all the way through WW1, Austro-Fascism to fascism and WW2 but didn't reach the present IIRC. The Austrian Empire lost a lot (most?) of the wars it was involved in, but that didn't keep it from being taught, albeit in a, as you wrote, decorated fashion
- werpon 7y agoSpaniard here. I don't think I've ever read or heard a sugarcoated version of the conquest. In fact it's usually the opposite. October 12 is indeed the day Columbus set foot on the New World and also our national holiday, but I fail to see how it's different from other holidays such as Thanksgiving.
- lentil_soup 7y agoI don't think Thanksgiving is comparable. Spain celebrating the 12th of October as its national day is as if England celebrated Thanksgiving as its own national day.
- willvarfar 7y agoI don't understand why Thanksgiving is celebrated at all. Its a bunch of religious bigots who left England for Holland because England was too religiously tolerant. They then had to leave Holland because they felt threatened by the fact that their children didn't want to continue their religion and were 'going native'. So they head off to the English colonies in America where they settle land cleared of native Indians by the plague. Half of them then die, and then the next year one of the pilgrim's many 'thanksgivings' is for the harvest. After the revolution, Washington is petitioned to make it a holiday, although its not on the current day. Jefferson, for example, rallied against it. So why celebrate thanksgiving again? Why celebrate the 'pilgrim fathers' in school? Why? England's national day doesn't make sense through a modern lens either. Its generally believed that, if Saint George existed, he was a lowly Greek soldier from modern-day Turkey. We can speculate what the dragon might actually have been, except that story doesn't seem to turn up until later. The Catholic Saint George was executed by a Roman emperor for refusing to worship pagan gods... and this is related to England in what way? Technically that goes back to King Richard praying to him on a crusade or something. Then again, you stop someone in the English street and ask them why Saint George is the patron saint, or why, and they have not a clue! Don't get me started on Christmas! If we had to justify every holiday and explain how it still makes any sense to celebrate it or whoever it originally venerated, then we'd have no holidays at all! :)
- madengr 7y agoThanksgiving is now about overeating and shopping. Wonder what it will be about 100 years from now.
- dan_mctree 7y agoConsidering the Dutch connection. Thanksgiving may've just been a continuation of the Dutch dankdag/Thanksday, which is a small protestant celebration thanking God for the harvest. They do that every year, regardless of the circumstances, and it kind of sounds like they just continued that practice. Harvest festivals in general were common throughout Europe and many immigrants would be familiar with them, so it's not very surprising that at least one version of it would survive.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- darkwater 7y agoErr, because the American continent IS NOT Spain, nor part of it? Because the current Spain state should not celebrate what a previous empire conquered? Still celebrating the national day on Oct 12th is a complete shame, and let one wonder how is still imperialism inside the Spain way of thinking. Spain national day should be Dec 6th, when the current Constitution was approved.
- spanxx 7y agoAnother victim of Black Legend...
- darkwater 7y agoPlease enlighten me
- thoughtleader31 7y agoThe Spanish try to whitewash their atrocities by speaking of a purposeful campaign of defamation from rival powers. So successful it was, apparently, that it made disctinct stories of Spanish brutality materialize in every country in the Americas. The legend of the Black Legend also emphasizes the enlightenment of the Crown's laws regarding the legal status and treatment of indigenous peoples. Unfortunately the rumors spread by the English about the treatment of natives were so convincing, that the Spanish conquistadors and encomenderos also came to believe that they had the right to enslave the indians and create a racial caste system where mestizos would live as serfs for centuries. Or maybe it just was that the laws were never effectively enforced.
- spanxx 7y agoNot true at all. English made propaganda about supposed atrocities and that propaganda is alive today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_legend
- 7y ago
- saiya-jin 7y agoI would be really surprised if you actually got raw version of history as it happened at school. Very few countries actually admit properly their past mistakes (Germany and WWII might be rather an exception). Raw version would be somewhere along the lines of "our ancestors were among the most horrible arrogant ignorant humans that ever lived if measured by the amount of evil done unto the others, and we are deeply ashamed to be their descendants". The fact that you actually celebrate Columbus' discovery as national day strongly indicates against that. I mean, go to places like Potosi in Bolivia to see all the horror and misery caused by spanish slavers. 8 freaking million human beings were basically butchered by spanish just in this one single spot to mine silver to make spain richer. Not that it helped them in long run considering current state of spanish economy.
- spanxx 7y agoDo you have any sources of that? Claiming 8 million people were slaved is a bit of stretch, don't you think?
- saiya-jin 7y agoLiterally the first thing that comes from google search of this. Plus they claim this number when you are actually there in their museum dedicated specifically to this horrible part of their history. Visited last year, some 'jobs' around smelting had survivability in mere weeks because of all the toxicity. Plus took a trip quite deep into the mines themselves. Imagine mountain that is almost 4800m high, drilled through like a proper swiss emmental cheese (they claim around 500 different entrances to tunnel system).
- wayoutthere 7y agoI'm not saying this excuses anything, but the conquistadors looked at the natives more like smart apes than humans. They literally thought it was their God-given right to hold dominion over the earth and all the animals on it. This level of self-reflection was just not possible at the time (the age of conquest was contemporary with the Spanish Inquisition).
- ankalagon 7y ago
- protomyth 7y agoWell, I'm at a community college on a reservation and we certainly celebrate Thanksgiving but don't take off for Columbus day. So, I would say its viewed rather differently.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago> But I am merely speculation. A question mark in a submission title doesn't mean they're actually asking uninformed HN readers to speculate. It generally means that the author, who presumably has some subject matter expertise, intends to explore and possibly answer the question. Why would you bother speculating instead of just reading the article and learning something?
- rixrax 7y agoModern scholars put pre-Colombian American population somewhere north of 50M people[0]. This number has been hard to measure as most of these people were presumably wiped out by European and African germs well before settlers arrived to most areas and no/few pre Colombian written records exist. Imagine demoralizing and disorienting effect of losing up to 90%[0] of communities population to mysterious disease. I’ve sometimes wondered if the lack of this wonder weapon is reason behind why Vikings and others that reached American continent before Columbus did, never established permanent lasting and expanding colonies. Imagine if it would have worked the other way around - indigenous Americans carrying a germ that would have traveled back to a Europe making great plague look like a child’s play. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indige...
- kwelstr 7y ago<<Imagine if it would have worked the other way around - indigenous Americans carrying a germ that would have traveled back to a Europe making great plague look like a child’s play.>> Syphilis spread in Europe after Columbus returned from the Americas and was devastating even if not to the same extent.
- woliveirajr 7y agoWell, there are some hypotheses that indeed Columbus' crew got syphilis in exchange of some "trades" [0], but it wasn't that devastanting. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_syphilis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_syphilis
- okusername 7y agoJust that you know - it's ok no to post, if you have nothing substantial to say. Spreading hateful slander adds nothing to the board.
- spanxx 7y agoDo you really think that a hundred of undisciplined soldiers could fight and won a war against an empire? Spanish conquerors were lucky that Aztecs were hated by other natives and allied them. It was more like a civil war than a conquest.
- Maultasche 7y agoYeah, a lot of people simplify it and say it was guns, horses, and armor that allows Cortes to conquer the Aztecs, but I eventually learned that it was nothing like that. The guns, horses, and armor (although there were only a few relatively primitive guns, mainly cannon) did offer an advantage, their opponents learned to deal with these elements. A couple hundred against tens of thousands will lose even with the tech advantage. They really only had a chance because they found lots of allies willing to overthrow their cruel oppressors. Even then, something like half of the Spaniards were killed in the street fighting in what is today Mexico City, both in the initial escape after negotiations went downhill and the return with a large army. The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz contains an interesting account of the fighting that took place, and he makes it clear that their allies were essential to their victory. It's a fascinating read.