4 ms·

On the one hand, there are no serious alternatives to systemd. (There are unserious ones like OpenRC, and abandonware like upstart.) And there's no point in Deb

by bbanyc 7y ago

On the one hand, there are no serious alternatives to systemd. (There are unserious ones like OpenRC, and abandonware like upstart.) And there's no point in Debian crippling itself in the hope that a serious alternative will spring up. Personally I find it intrusive and unintuitive, but I'm willing to admit defeat. Might as well take the plunge and go all out. On the other hand... man, it's sad to see the state of things, where IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland, and stuff Red Hat doesn't use gradually bit rots away. We saw it with Gtk3's poor support for non-GNOME apps, we're seeing it with various systemd components being required for GNOME (which incidentally breaks non-Linux OS's but who cares about those?), we're going to see it when Wayland replaces X and breaks every old app that hasn't stuck with the upgrade treadmill. As a Debian user since the early 2000s, it saddens me to think of all that we're going to lose because "Linux is not about choice."

hnarn 7y ago
> IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland This seems like a very dishonest exaggeration. > systemd components being required for GNOME (which incidentally breaks non-Linux OS's but who cares about those?) Is it not true that it's completely up to GNOME to choose what platforms and operating systems they wish to target? Is it also not true that GNOME, being open source, can at any time be forked (like MATE) and developed separately by those who disagree with where the project is going? This is an age-old saga in the world of open source, and I don't see the issue. > we're going to see it when Wayland replaces X and breaks every old app that hasn't stuck with the upgrade treadmill What do you suggest should happen instead? Wayland shouldn't happen? Unless replacing and breaking happens, nothing happens. We can't just ship X as the default forever and hope that Wayland won't slowly die while people voluntarily tweak their installations and move over. > As a Debian user since the early 2000s, it saddens me to think of all that we're going to lose because "Linux is not about choice." In what way is Linux not about choice? It's such an incredible hyperbole, and it couldn't be further from the truth. In some ways, the infected discussions around open source mirror those of free speech. People conflate "censorship" with "being ignored", just like people conflate "nobody wants to maintain your pet project" with "Linux freedom of choice is dying". The answer has always been the same in all FOSS discussions: If you want something else to happen, put in work hours, or donate money towards realizing your vision. If you're not willing to do either of those, your individual opinions on where Project X is going are very likely just noise.
- yc12340 7y ago
  >> IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland > This seems like a very dishonest exaggeration. Definitely a dishonest exaggeration. Google runs Linux userland. Have been for entire last decade. Unless by "userland" you means something other than "system, used by most of users".
  - cyphar 7y ago
    > Definitely a dishonest exaggeration. Google runs Linux userland. Have been for entire last decade. Unless by "userland" you means something other than "system, used by most of users". I'm pretty sure they meant "runs" in the sense of "runs the show" (make the majority of the decisions in Linux userland projects) not in the sense of "uses".
    - yc12340 7y ago
      > I'm pretty sure they meant "runs" in the sense of "runs the show" (make the majority of the decisions in Linux userland projects) not in the sense of "uses". I was not meaning that in some twisted way. Most computers on modern Internet are smartphones — desktop use is slowly declining. And Google runs the show on the dominant smartphone platform. Red Hat's desktop is completely irrelevant in comparison.
      - cyphar 7y ago
        You didn't mean it in that way, but the parent comment you were responding to did mean it in that way. I don't think anyone could in good conscience argue that RHEL Desktop is the most widely used Linux platform, so I you're not gaining much by refuting that argument. (As for your point, Google -- even on Android -- still uses plenty of software which is majority-developed by Red Hat and other Linux distribution companies. The kernel alone is an obvious example, but there are many others.)
- delfinom 7y ago
  >The answer has always been the same in all FOSS discussions: If you want something else to happen, put in work hours, or donate money towards realizing your vision. If you're not willing to do either of those, your individual opinions on where Project X is going are very likely just noise. This. All this whining is mostly done by those that don't contribute anything at all but leech off others work.
mike_hock 7y ago
> man, it's sad to see the state of things, where IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland, and stuff Red Hat doesn't use gradually bit rots away. Word, but that's the symptom. The cause is a severe lack of developer time. If no one develops the Linux userland unless they're paid for it by companies like Red Hat, then of course the entire userland will eventually come from those companies. For the same reason, Debian currently can't afford to burden its maintainers with supporting alternative init systems, which means they still have to write legacy init scripts and reap none of the benefits of systemd.
nickik 7y ago
This is such a perfect example of a combination of overly exasperated negative of the current to glorify supposedly perfect past that is boarders on party.
- bbanyc 7y ago
  Yeah, it is. It just feels like there's a lot less energy in the Linux dev scene than there was back then. Not entirely a bad thing, mind you, a lot of that energy produced heat instead of light, but still...

by bbanyc 7y ago

hnarn 7y ago

> IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland This seems like a very dishonest exaggeration. > systemd components being required for GNOME (which incidentally breaks non-Linux OS's but who cares about those?) Is it not true that it's completely up to GNOME to choose what platforms and operating systems they wish to target? Is it also not true that GNOME, being open source, can at any time be forked (like MATE) and developed separately by those who disagree with where the project is going? This is an age-old saga in the world of open source, and I don't see the issue. > we're going to see it when Wayland replaces X and breaks every old app that hasn't stuck with the upgrade treadmill What do you suggest should happen instead? Wayland shouldn't happen? Unless replacing and breaking happens, nothing happens. We can't just ship X as the default forever and hope that Wayland won't slowly die while people voluntarily tweak their installations and move over. > As a Debian user since the early 2000s, it saddens me to think of all that we're going to lose because "Linux is not about choice." In what way is Linux not about choice? It's such an incredible hyperbole, and it couldn't be further from the truth. In some ways, the infected discussions around open source mirror those of free speech. People conflate "censorship" with "being ignored", just like people conflate "nobody wants to maintain your pet project" with "Linux freedom of choice is dying". The answer has always been the same in all FOSS discussions: If you want something else to happen, put in work hours, or donate money towards realizing your vision. If you're not willing to do either of those, your individual opinions on where Project X is going are very likely just noise.

yc12340 7y ago
>> IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland > This seems like a very dishonest exaggeration. Definitely a dishonest exaggeration. Google runs Linux userland. Have been for entire last decade. Unless by "userland" you means something other than "system, used by most of users".
- cyphar 7y ago
  > Definitely a dishonest exaggeration. Google runs Linux userland. Have been for entire last decade. Unless by "userland" you means something other than "system, used by most of users". I'm pretty sure they meant "runs" in the sense of "runs the show" (make the majority of the decisions in Linux userland projects) not in the sense of "uses".
  - yc12340 7y ago
    > I'm pretty sure they meant "runs" in the sense of "runs the show" (make the majority of the decisions in Linux userland projects) not in the sense of "uses". I was not meaning that in some twisted way. Most computers on modern Internet are smartphones — desktop use is slowly declining. And Google runs the show on the dominant smartphone platform. Red Hat's desktop is completely irrelevant in comparison.
    - cyphar 7y ago
      You didn't mean it in that way, but the parent comment you were responding to did mean it in that way. I don't think anyone could in good conscience argue that RHEL Desktop is the most widely used Linux platform, so I you're not gaining much by refuting that argument. (As for your point, Google -- even on Android -- still uses plenty of software which is majority-developed by Red Hat and other Linux distribution companies. The kernel alone is an obvious example, but there are many others.)
delfinom 7y ago
>The answer has always been the same in all FOSS discussions: If you want something else to happen, put in work hours, or donate money towards realizing your vision. If you're not willing to do either of those, your individual opinions on where Project X is going are very likely just noise. This. All this whining is mostly done by those that don't contribute anything at all but leech off others work.

mike_hock 7y ago

> man, it's sad to see the state of things, where IBM/Red Hat employees basically run the entire Linux userland, and stuff Red Hat doesn't use gradually bit rots away. Word, but that's the symptom. The cause is a severe lack of developer time. If no one develops the Linux userland unless they're paid for it by companies like Red Hat, then of course the entire userland will eventually come from those companies. For the same reason, Debian currently can't afford to burden its maintainers with supporting alternative init systems, which means they still have to write legacy init scripts and reap none of the benefits of systemd.

nickik 7y ago

This is such a perfect example of a combination of overly exasperated negative of the current to glorify supposedly perfect past that is boarders on party.

bbanyc 7y ago
Yeah, it is. It just feels like there's a lot less energy in the Linux dev scene than there was back then. Not entirely a bad thing, mind you, a lot of that energy produced heat instead of light, but still...