7 ms·

When I started using Linux, in college, the advantages were that Ubuntu, and others, were super light-weight and a great way to give life to old hardware. Also,

When I started using Linux, in college, the advantages were that Ubuntu, and others, were super light-weight and a great way to give life to old hardware. Also, if you were interested in programming, it was a pretty good way to discover how things work. Benefit one was destroyed by Gnome3 (and, for a while, Unity) being the default in the beginner's distros. Benefit two was destroyed by SystemD wrapping its tentacles around more and more things, and making a modern distro an obtuse, ugly system to learn from, or to work with. Is there any persuasive reason for a college student today to try desktop Linux? Is there a good pitch anymore?

warent 7y ago
It's free
LeoPanthera 7y ago
This seems to imply that the only advantage of Linux was its low system requirements, and I don't think it was ever true that that was the only advantage.
- caiocaiocaio 7y ago
  I'm not talking the only advantage, I'm talking what's going to convince people to use Linux for desktop in the first place. What would be a good one-minute pitch in 2019? Because when I first started, nearly 15 years ago, Linux had a really good one-minute sales pitch that was extremely persuasive.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
webkike 7y ago
Gnome 3 is great. Also, there is no platform that beats Unix for programming. Absolutely none.
- caiocaiocaio 7y ago
  Gnome3 is great if you want to disable 4323 hotkey combinations to open their overlay (except the one that can't be disabled), and download an extension that makes it so moving the cursor over 15% of the upper left corner of the screen doesn't open the overlay. But it is slow. The overlay barely works well on a new mid-range system. A cheap laptop that is as old as Gnome3 has no chance of running Gnome3 in a satisfying way. Even if you ignore the overlay and install dmenu (which a noob isn't going to know about) it is slower than not only other wm's for Linux, but Windows and OSX. It's not a good way to get new people interested in Linux.
  - webkike 7y ago
    I think it's fine. I'm not sure that new linux users would honestly prefer something extremely fast like i3, and unity is extremely clunky and unappealing.
jimmaswell 7y ago
I never got the "good for programmers to learn on" argument. If anything Windows has better IDE support and is easier to install things on for a beginner. Not so bad on Linux with VS Code these days at least.
- conjectures 7y ago
  "Windows has better IDE support" Why would having better IDE support make for a better learning environment? It masks what is going on, and complicates it (for the benefit of people doing much more complicated things). But if you're bashing out helloworld.py you've just made it hard to disambiguate what the file is doing, what the runtime, and what the IDE.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    Windows/VS: Type some stuff in the window and hit F5, get shown visually the line that went wrong. Install other things with easy setup utilities. Linux/CLI: Learn an obtuse (beginners, remember) command line text editor, save the file, run another text command to run it, remember the error as you go back in. Fight with apt to get things to work, pray there are no dependency conflicts/errors, learn sudo, go find an IRC channel to help with a package not working with some obscure error about "but it depends on .. which is not installed, try (command that won't fix anything)" First one sounds much easier for a beginner to me. Making programmers learn on linux is like making student drivers start on manual tractor trailers.
    - flukus 7y ago
      > First one sounds much easier for a beginner to me They didn't say it wasn't easier, just that they'd learn less. A better platform to learn on doesn't result in you learning less. This is even true among "professional" developers, they think somethings impossible just because it can't be done inside visual studio because they don't know how all the parts fit together, all they can do is hit F5. > Linux/CLI: Learn an obtuse (beginners, remember) command line text editor, save the file, run another text command to run it, remember the error as you go back in. Fight with apt to get things to work, pray there are no dependency conflicts/errors, learn sudo, go find an IRC channel to help with a package not working with some obscure error about "but it depends on .. which is not installed, try (command that won't fix anything)" Aside from the command line text editor you have deal with almost similar issues with VS, different but similar. You can end up in DLL hell from nuget, you can fight with click once deploys, you can find useless "answers" on MSDN, etc.
nine_k 7y ago
If you want lighter weight Ubuntu GUI, check out Xubuntu or Lubuntu (or just select Xfce or LXDE as your desktop at install time). There is e.g. Elementary OS (also an Ubuntu derivative) with another lightweight GUI. I personally run Void Linux (which lives happily without both systemd and sysvinit) with Xfce.
- willtim 7y ago
  I haven't tried it, but many are saying the Deepin desktop is better than all of the above.
  - hnarn 7y ago
    Deepin is developed by China-based "Wuhan Deepin Technology", and is pre-shipped by Huawei on their Linux laptops. That's all I need to know to not use it.
jimws 7y ago
> Is there any persuasive reason for a college student today to try desktop Linux? I think not if we look at Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. But maybe small ones like Alpine Linux? This brings up a good question: What good free and open source operating system is out there that would be persuasive for a college student or someone who wants to learn an operating system as opposed to merely using it?
- juped 7y ago
  I submit: https://www.openbsd.org https://www.openbsd.org
- kbenson 7y ago
  I found Linux From Scratch[1] invaluable when I built a system with it almost two decades ago (but I assume it's still awesome). The trick is to not use the automated build portions and read and follow their page on every step. It takes a while, but you come away with a much better understanding of how the system works. 1: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
juped 7y ago
Someone who wants to understand their system and perhaps program it in C is advised to join those of us in the world of desktop (well, laptop mostly for me) BSD. A fresh OpenBSD install couldn't be more pleasant to hack on, IMO. If you want lightness, or need the Linux kernel for something, Alpine Linux is a tiny and solid project. No systemd to be found (not even an option on BSDs; Alpine Linux is OpenRC).
- bn7t 7y ago
  Also Void Linux is a systemd-free distro I can recommend.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Laptops are the new desktops. :)
- kuschku 7y ago
  Hilariously, OpenBSD is closer to systemd in its philosophy than anything else — one umbrella project developing all parts of the OS, often depending on each other.
  - AdieuToLogic 7y ago
    > Hilariously, OpenBSD is closer to systemd in its philosophy than anything else ... Hilariously, this is premise is entirely wrong. > ... one umbrella project developing all parts of the OS, often depending on each other. Systemd is not the OS. Full stop.
    - growse 7y ago
      > Systemd is not the OS. Full stop. Do you mean the project, or the unit system? I'd argue an init system is very much a key part of the operating system, as important as the kernel. You can't really do much without one. If you mean the project, then you've missed the point.
    - Izkata 7y ago
      > Systemd is not the OS. Certainly seems to want to become it.
Nursie 7y ago
> Is there any persuasive reason for a college student today to try desktop Linux? What is this college student studying? If it's something technical then yes, 100%, you need exposure to multiple different systems, and sticking to your MS enclave is going to seriously limit your abilities. Despite SystemD Linux is better than ever as a coding OS and as a desktop OS. It works great on a huge range of hardware and it provides frictionless access to tools to code in more languages than you can shake a stick at. If Gnome is too heavy or restrictive for you (and I haven't gone near it since 3 launched) then try a different DE like Xfce. There's a selling point right there - switch DEs at the drop of a hat.
nguoi 7y ago
>Benefit one was destroyed by Gnome3 (and, for a while, Unity) being the default in the beginner's distros That statement seems inconsistent with itself. It's the default, you can change it.
- caiocaiocaio 7y ago
  What sold Linux for me was trying Ubuntu on an old dusty laptop that had been sitting in my closet for a few years. It installed fast and ran fast and I got a good feeling for it in less than an hour. If the default windowing system was slow back and awkard, I would never have had no idea there was another windowing system because I'd have had no motivation to learn more.
- donapieppo 7y ago
  I think that in this statement 'default' with the word 'beginner' can be read as 'unchangeable' for the sake of this conversation.
  - nguoi 7y ago
    It's no more difficult than installing any other program

warent 7y ago

It's free

LeoPanthera 7y ago

This seems to imply that the only advantage of Linux was its low system requirements, and I don't think it was ever true that that was the only advantage.

caiocaiocaio 7y ago
I'm not talking the only advantage, I'm talking what's going to convince people to use Linux for desktop in the first place. What would be a good one-minute pitch in 2019? Because when I first started, nearly 15 years ago, Linux had a really good one-minute sales pitch that was extremely persuasive.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

webkike 7y ago

Gnome 3 is great. Also, there is no platform that beats Unix for programming. Absolutely none.

caiocaiocaio 7y ago
Gnome3 is great if you want to disable 4323 hotkey combinations to open their overlay (except the one that can't be disabled), and download an extension that makes it so moving the cursor over 15% of the upper left corner of the screen doesn't open the overlay. But it is slow. The overlay barely works well on a new mid-range system. A cheap laptop that is as old as Gnome3 has no chance of running Gnome3 in a satisfying way. Even if you ignore the overlay and install dmenu (which a noob isn't going to know about) it is slower than not only other wm's for Linux, but Windows and OSX. It's not a good way to get new people interested in Linux.
- webkike 7y ago
  I think it's fine. I'm not sure that new linux users would honestly prefer something extremely fast like i3, and unity is extremely clunky and unappealing.

jimmaswell 7y ago

I never got the "good for programmers to learn on" argument. If anything Windows has better IDE support and is easier to install things on for a beginner. Not so bad on Linux with VS Code these days at least.

conjectures 7y ago
"Windows has better IDE support" Why would having better IDE support make for a better learning environment? It masks what is going on, and complicates it (for the benefit of people doing much more complicated things). But if you're bashing out helloworld.py you've just made it hard to disambiguate what the file is doing, what the runtime, and what the IDE.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Windows/VS: Type some stuff in the window and hit F5, get shown visually the line that went wrong. Install other things with easy setup utilities. Linux/CLI: Learn an obtuse (beginners, remember) command line text editor, save the file, run another text command to run it, remember the error as you go back in. Fight with apt to get things to work, pray there are no dependency conflicts/errors, learn sudo, go find an IRC channel to help with a package not working with some obscure error about "but it depends on .. which is not installed, try (command that won't fix anything)" First one sounds much easier for a beginner to me. Making programmers learn on linux is like making student drivers start on manual tractor trailers.
  - flukus 7y ago
    > First one sounds much easier for a beginner to me They didn't say it wasn't easier, just that they'd learn less. A better platform to learn on doesn't result in you learning less. This is even true among "professional" developers, they think somethings impossible just because it can't be done inside visual studio because they don't know how all the parts fit together, all they can do is hit F5. > Linux/CLI: Learn an obtuse (beginners, remember) command line text editor, save the file, run another text command to run it, remember the error as you go back in. Fight with apt to get things to work, pray there are no dependency conflicts/errors, learn sudo, go find an IRC channel to help with a package not working with some obscure error about "but it depends on .. which is not installed, try (command that won't fix anything)" Aside from the command line text editor you have deal with almost similar issues with VS, different but similar. You can end up in DLL hell from nuget, you can fight with click once deploys, you can find useless "answers" on MSDN, etc.

nine_k 7y ago

If you want lighter weight Ubuntu GUI, check out Xubuntu or Lubuntu (or just select Xfce or LXDE as your desktop at install time). There is e.g. Elementary OS (also an Ubuntu derivative) with another lightweight GUI. I personally run Void Linux (which lives happily without both systemd and sysvinit) with Xfce.

willtim 7y ago
I haven't tried it, but many are saying the Deepin desktop is better than all of the above.
- hnarn 7y ago
  Deepin is developed by China-based "Wuhan Deepin Technology", and is pre-shipped by Huawei on their Linux laptops. That's all I need to know to not use it.

jimws 7y ago

> Is there any persuasive reason for a college student today to try desktop Linux? I think not if we look at Ubuntu, Red Hat, etc. But maybe small ones like Alpine Linux? This brings up a good question: What good free and open source operating system is out there that would be persuasive for a college student or someone who wants to learn an operating system as opposed to merely using it?

juped 7y ago
I submit: https://www.openbsd.org https://www.openbsd.org
kbenson 7y ago
I found Linux From Scratch[1] invaluable when I built a system with it almost two decades ago (but I assume it's still awesome). The trick is to not use the automated build portions and read and follow their page on every step. It takes a while, but you come away with a much better understanding of how the system works. 1: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

juped 7y ago

Someone who wants to understand their system and perhaps program it in C is advised to join those of us in the world of desktop (well, laptop mostly for me) BSD. A fresh OpenBSD install couldn't be more pleasant to hack on, IMO. If you want lightness, or need the Linux kernel for something, Alpine Linux is a tiny and solid project. No systemd to be found (not even an option on BSDs; Alpine Linux is OpenRC).

bn7t 7y ago
Also Void Linux is a systemd-free distro I can recommend.
pjmlp 7y ago
Laptops are the new desktops. :)
kuschku 7y ago
Hilariously, OpenBSD is closer to systemd in its philosophy than anything else — one umbrella project developing all parts of the OS, often depending on each other.
- AdieuToLogic 7y ago
  > Hilariously, OpenBSD is closer to systemd in its philosophy than anything else ... Hilariously, this is premise is entirely wrong. > ... one umbrella project developing all parts of the OS, often depending on each other. Systemd is not the OS. Full stop.
  - growse 7y ago
    > Systemd is not the OS. Full stop. Do you mean the project, or the unit system? I'd argue an init system is very much a key part of the operating system, as important as the kernel. You can't really do much without one. If you mean the project, then you've missed the point.
  - Izkata 7y ago
    > Systemd is not the OS. Certainly seems to want to become it.

Nursie 7y ago

> Is there any persuasive reason for a college student today to try desktop Linux? What is this college student studying? If it's something technical then yes, 100%, you need exposure to multiple different systems, and sticking to your MS enclave is going to seriously limit your abilities. Despite SystemD Linux is better than ever as a coding OS and as a desktop OS. It works great on a huge range of hardware and it provides frictionless access to tools to code in more languages than you can shake a stick at. If Gnome is too heavy or restrictive for you (and I haven't gone near it since 3 launched) then try a different DE like Xfce. There's a selling point right there - switch DEs at the drop of a hat.

nguoi 7y ago

>Benefit one was destroyed by Gnome3 (and, for a while, Unity) being the default in the beginner's distros That statement seems inconsistent with itself. It's the default, you can change it.

caiocaiocaio 7y ago
What sold Linux for me was trying Ubuntu on an old dusty laptop that had been sitting in my closet for a few years. It installed fast and ran fast and I got a good feeling for it in less than an hour. If the default windowing system was slow back and awkard, I would never have had no idea there was another windowing system because I'd have had no motivation to learn more.
donapieppo 7y ago
I think that in this statement 'default' with the word 'beginner' can be read as 'unchangeable' for the sake of this conversation.
- nguoi 7y ago
  It's no more difficult than installing any other program