15 ms·

https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink/#ii-chaumian-coinjoin https://github.com/nopara73/ZeroLink/#ii-chaumian-coinjoin

vkou 7y ago
A tumbler may theoretically[1] help[2] you launder coins that you have received from theft, extortion, drug dealing, or other criminal activity. It won't do anything to help you avoid paying the tax man, come April. [1] Assuming it's not a honeypot ran by a TLA. [2] Assuming that, by legislature, tumbled coins don't become 'tainted'.
- coralreef 7y ago
  Alternatively, a coin-join helps provide anonymity and privacy to legitimate users. In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws. It blows me away how flippantly so many cryptocurrency enthusiasts discuss criminal money laundering.
    - rootsudo 7y ago
      Next you'll be amazed how many high school students discuss trying to not get caught breaking school rules. Or how many drivers speed.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - catalogia 7y ago
      Criminals talking about their crimes really shouldn't blow your mind. It's very common for criminals to get caught because they couldn't keep their mouth shut. Murderers get caught like this all the time, and murder is much more serious than money laundering.
    - coralreef 7y ago
      Criminal money laundering? We're discussing the technicals on what it takes for a government to enforce taxation on a new asset class. There's no conspiracy here, only an attempt at sound understanding. Did you not realize we talk about topics like how to penetrate computer security, with great specificity, ALL the time here on HN? Does this objective discussion about potential illegal acts blow you away too?
  - PeterisP 7y ago
    "In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address." is not really true. For starters, the government is allowed to simply ask "we think that maybe you might have had some income in the form of cryptoassets. Please provide an exhaustive list of such income" with the understanding that any lies or omision on that answer changes it from "how much do I need to pay tax?" question into a "go-to-jail-for-how-long" tax fraud. If they find your answer suspicious (for example, it doesn't match some third party info that they have e.g. from a TLA running a honeypot tumbling service, or a honeypot 'trade crypto for cash in a park' op or Tor node monitoring or whatever, all these things are being done by gov't), then this can be followed up by a tax audit (i.e. have you purchased any assets or services that are above your declared income?) and/or a warrant to search your devices (possibly without you knowing) for forensic evidence of your crypto transactions - which might, for example, result in evidence that you used a coin-join service with an intent to circumvent KYC/AML laws, which by itself can be treated as a crime even if they don't find definitive proof that you owned coins at a particular address.
    - downvoted 7y ago
      Of course, this all assumes there are no loopholes in the current cryptoasset system. That is, there is no way for the government to go "we found your tax fraud, now you are going to jail for life" – they can't, as long as it doesn't "undermine" the purpose of this inquiry.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Right. I've used Bitcoin for a decade, and I've never used an exchange. There is no link between Bitcoin and my meatspace identity. Bitcoin is only for playing online.
edm0nd 7y ago
or, just use Monero.
- Aaronstotle 7y ago
  Exactly, I'm not sure why people continually try to add privacy to bitcoin when there's a better alternative. With all of the blockchain monitoring services it's nearly a lost cause.
- jki275 7y ago
  Monero has a ton of issues that make it not nearly as private as you might believe. https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/ https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/
  - RandomBacon 7y ago
    FYI, that's outdated now. Monero has made improvements, and researchers continue to make more improvements. Previous HN discussion about article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16687008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16687008 r/Monero discussion: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/87hr28/hn_discussion_of_wireds_article_monero_is_less/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/87hr28/hn_discussio...
    - jki275 7y ago
      Only one of those particular issues is outdated, as the article tells you up front. Monero still has issues that remain and continue to be found as time goes on. It's not a good protocol and not a safe one for privacy.
      - RandomBacon 7y ago
        It's digital, so it or any other digital currency can never be perfectly-perfect. It's private which is it's main goal. If others want to be anonymous, just like any other digital currency, they need to take additional steps that can never be solved by any digital currency. There are much better people to discuss any problems you think it might have over at r/Monero, including people with PhDs (I'll never be as smart or have as much dedication as they do). I suggest using the search function about your concern, and if you don't see it, create a post or make a comment in their Skepticism Sunday threads. I learned about Monero here on HN years ago, understood its limitations then, and keep mostly up-to-date. I won't claim that any thing in the world won't have its limitations or problems, but I do still believe that Monero is the best project currently and still looks promising going forward in terms of user financial privacy.
tootahe45 7y ago
https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/09/151096-wasabi-wallet-user-arrested-for-handling-bitcoins-from-serious-crime/ https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/09/151096-wasabi-walle... I hope you wouldn't also suggest using a dex with 100k/day volume, and receiving pedocoins? These privacy-enhancing technologies would be good if a fraction of the people advertising their merits actually used them, but the reality is, the only people using coinjoins/monero/dex are people who need to, which is a huge problem to associate yourself with.
- ryanlol 7y ago
  That's a terrible article. The only source is a reddit user who made two short posts with very little details. The sort of responsiveness described from LE by the poster also sounds downright unbelievable, I'd bet that's a fake story.

vkou 7y ago

A tumbler may theoretically[1] help[2] you launder coins that you have received from theft, extortion, drug dealing, or other criminal activity. It won't do anything to help you avoid paying the tax man, come April. [1] Assuming it's not a honeypot ran by a TLA. [2] Assuming that, by legislature, tumbled coins don't become 'tainted'.

coralreef 7y ago
Alternatively, a coin-join helps provide anonymity and privacy to legitimate users. In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago
  > In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address. This is basically only possible if coins are bought/sold through an exchange following KYC laws. It blows me away how flippantly so many cryptocurrency enthusiasts discuss criminal money laundering.
  - rootsudo 7y ago
    Next you'll be amazed how many high school students discuss trying to not get caught breaking school rules. Or how many drivers speed.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - catalogia 7y ago
    Criminals talking about their crimes really shouldn't blow your mind. It's very common for criminals to get caught because they couldn't keep their mouth shut. Murderers get caught like this all the time, and murder is much more serious than money laundering.
  - coralreef 7y ago
    Criminal money laundering? We're discussing the technicals on what it takes for a government to enforce taxation on a new asset class. There's no conspiracy here, only an attempt at sound understanding. Did you not realize we talk about topics like how to penetrate computer security, with great specificity, ALL the time here on HN? Does this objective discussion about potential illegal acts blow you away too?
- PeterisP 7y ago
  "In order for a government to enforce taxation on cryptoassets, they would need to definitively prove that a person owned coins at a specific address." is not really true. For starters, the government is allowed to simply ask "we think that maybe you might have had some income in the form of cryptoassets. Please provide an exhaustive list of such income" with the understanding that any lies or omision on that answer changes it from "how much do I need to pay tax?" question into a "go-to-jail-for-how-long" tax fraud. If they find your answer suspicious (for example, it doesn't match some third party info that they have e.g. from a TLA running a honeypot tumbling service, or a honeypot 'trade crypto for cash in a park' op or Tor node monitoring or whatever, all these things are being done by gov't), then this can be followed up by a tax audit (i.e. have you purchased any assets or services that are above your declared income?) and/or a warrant to search your devices (possibly without you knowing) for forensic evidence of your crypto transactions - which might, for example, result in evidence that you used a coin-join service with an intent to circumvent KYC/AML laws, which by itself can be treated as a crime even if they don't find definitive proof that you owned coins at a particular address.
  - downvoted 7y ago
    Of course, this all assumes there are no loopholes in the current cryptoasset system. That is, there is no way for the government to go "we found your tax fraud, now you are going to jail for life" – they can't, as long as it doesn't "undermine" the purpose of this inquiry.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Right. I've used Bitcoin for a decade, and I've never used an exchange. There is no link between Bitcoin and my meatspace identity. Bitcoin is only for playing online.

edm0nd 7y ago

or, just use Monero.

Aaronstotle 7y ago
Exactly, I'm not sure why people continually try to add privacy to bitcoin when there's a better alternative. With all of the blockchain monitoring services it's nearly a lost cause.
jki275 7y ago
Monero has a ton of issues that make it not nearly as private as you might believe. https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/ https://www.wired.com/story/monero-privacy/
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  FYI, that's outdated now. Monero has made improvements, and researchers continue to make more improvements. Previous HN discussion about article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16687008 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16687008 r/Monero discussion: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/87hr28/hn_discussion_of_wireds_article_monero_is_less/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/87hr28/hn_discussio...
  - jki275 7y ago
    Only one of those particular issues is outdated, as the article tells you up front. Monero still has issues that remain and continue to be found as time goes on. It's not a good protocol and not a safe one for privacy.
    - RandomBacon 7y ago
      It's digital, so it or any other digital currency can never be perfectly-perfect. It's private which is it's main goal. If others want to be anonymous, just like any other digital currency, they need to take additional steps that can never be solved by any digital currency. There are much better people to discuss any problems you think it might have over at r/Monero, including people with PhDs (I'll never be as smart or have as much dedication as they do). I suggest using the search function about your concern, and if you don't see it, create a post or make a comment in their Skepticism Sunday threads. I learned about Monero here on HN years ago, understood its limitations then, and keep mostly up-to-date. I won't claim that any thing in the world won't have its limitations or problems, but I do still believe that Monero is the best project currently and still looks promising going forward in terms of user financial privacy.

tootahe45 7y ago

https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/09/151096-wasabi-wallet-user-arrested-for-handling-bitcoins-from-serious-crime/ https://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2019/09/151096-wasabi-walle... I hope you wouldn't also suggest using a dex with 100k/day volume, and receiving pedocoins? These privacy-enhancing technologies would be good if a fraction of the people advertising their merits actually used them, but the reality is, the only people using coinjoins/monero/dex are people who need to, which is a huge problem to associate yourself with.

ryanlol 7y ago
That's a terrible article. The only source is a reddit user who made two short posts with very little details. The sort of responsiveness described from LE by the poster also sounds downright unbelievable, I'd bet that's a fake story.