10 ms·

In Praise of Idleness (1932)

213 points by EndXA 7y ago

dredmorbius 7y ago
Numerous previous discussions, for those interested: 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6513765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6513765 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9015092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9015092 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310846 Just a selection, 38 in total.
- dang 7y ago
  Also 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10876730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10876730 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1187681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1187681
  - Chinjut 7y ago
    Looks like this is an idea that resonates with people here! A cheering antidote to many other "Sell your whole life away working and working on businessy nonsense to make rich people richer and maybe, maybe get rich yourself" strains of posts popular here. [On edit: Oh, just noticed this comment itself duplicates https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21510442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21510442]
    - hliyan 7y ago
      I'm reminded of the saying, "Only the hungry man knows the taste of bread." Many of us in HN are used to working long and arduous hours, and we've also been told that it's a virtue to do so. To me it's no wonder the subject resonates.
melling 7y ago
Here’s another source if you hit the paywall: http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html
hirundo 7y ago
> I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous ... That's a privileged position. I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger, via a father that grew up in the depression. They would both be known as workaholics in this age, as they frequently, or usually, worked from pre dawn to post dusk for the necessities. My father stood in awe of his father's capacity for work, and I'm in awe of my father's. My own child, if I had one, would be less impressed with his father's work ethic, as I also grew up in a privileged position, without poverty or hunger, due to my father's work. It would be better for a child to inherit my father's work ethic than mine. Not for any virtue other than its capacity to promote thriving and survival in an unstable future.
- andrei_says_ 7y ago
  > I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger... I am not sure who these virtues serve in an economy maximizing extraction from the people contributing the work. The working class will always be pushed as much as possible, to the point of breaking, with no benefit to the workers themselves. > It would be better for a child to inherit my father's work ethic than mine. It may be good for them, but only if they work in a scenario where the work adds value for them. Currently someone who knows to define boundaries and not destroy their own life and health in order to let more be extracted from their effort, is a better option.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    > > I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger... > I am not sure who these virtues serve in an economy maximizing extraction from the people contributing the work. The working class will always be pushed as much as possible, to the point of breaking, with no benefit to the workers themselves. I call a bit of baloney on the last quoted sentence. You are significantly overstating your case. (You have one, but you're overstating it.) Still you have a bit of a point, from the point of view of the workers as a class. From the point of view of an individual worker and his/her family, though, hard work leaves them better off than they would be in the absence of the hard work. That leaves the worker and the family in a better position then they otherwise would be. Hence, "I benefited..."
keyle 7y ago
It's amazing how often this comes up on HN. Clearly this touches a lot of people that read this site... A reminder to listen to your body, and that you can't exhale without inhaling first.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
diminoten 7y ago
Reminds me a bit of this chess article from 1849: https://books.google.com/books?id=90hGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22a+pernicious+excitement+to+learn+and+play%22&pg=PA9&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=90hGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22a+perni...
lordleft 7y ago
One of my favorite facts about Bertrand Russell is that he invented type theory in the context of math, and in that way contributed indirectly to computer science.
amilein7minutes 7y ago
Bertand Russell, ahead of his time in his socio-political musings, as with foundations of mathematics. Although the essay begins as though he is advocating for leisure for some privileged section of the society -- and one might especially suspect his position is thus given he himself was part of the old aristocracy by birth -- he explains not only that idleness being a collective right will elevate the society but also that it can be achieved. The time to have achieved it, in my opinion, has already passed and yet we continue to be "foolish", as he puts it. His argument is so cogent that the following lines seem completely within reach for the society and paint the idea of paradise" >>> In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, for which, when the time at last comes, they will have lost the taste and the capacity. Men who in their professional work have become interested in some phase of economics or government will be able to develop their ideas without the academic detachment that makes the work of university economists lacking in reality. Medical men will have time to learn about the progress of medicine. Teachers will not be exasperatedly struggling to teach by routine things which they learned in their youth, which may, in the interval, have been proved to be untrue.
- _mul0 7y ago
  Personal anecdote: was going through a tough time in my life (early 20s), and was hating my major in school, dealing with a failed relationship, feeling like my peers outclassed me in every aspect, etc. Was suicidal. Spent some time in mental health facilities (urban Canada, free and open access for citizens). Surprised to see the diversity in the homeless/low-income population (which makes up a significant chunk of the population in mental health facilities). Former aerospace engineers, electrical engineers, teachers...and of course, students (like myself). My mental health is another story, not relevant to the topic at hand. The mental health facilities where I had to spend time are relevant though: some of them didn't allow devices (privacy concerns for others in the facility), and there was a lot of time to kill. Time was spent ruminating, reading, and writing (yay for the public library). Incredibly productive, in large part because given where I was, I felt so far gone, that I no longer needed to worry about what I was doing/how well I was doing it/what I should be doing, etc. I had already failed in all those judgements/metrics. Now, nothing to do, but to do. Coming out of facilities, started to get caught up in old life (getting job offer from internship firm). Could no longer tolerate it. Was ballsy, having just literally faced death, and simply walked out of work. Ballsy because I was literally throwing away my future. How would I earn money? Ended up bunking with my parents. That's one edge I had even when I was in the mental health facilities. Most of those homeless people I mentioned? Homeless because of lack of family support. Sat down at home. Reached out to professors doing work in the sort of things I felt genuinely interested in. The rest has been reasonably productive history, with more on the way. Point of this anecdote: the value of leisure time is something I feel very strongly about. It's what helped liberate me, and I only had it because of privilege (parents). I find it rather sad that there are so many people that disagree with arguments along the lines of "people are motivated by money, if they didn't have to work for money, they wouldn't do anything with their time". And judgementalism regarding low-income/disabled/homeless individuals. Heard this from a PhD student at uni, when I was telling him about how I always worry I might end up homeless some day: "Don't worry, you won't end up homeless. Everyone here (i.e. including me) is too smart/valuable to end up homeless." Couldn't help but laugh (internally). Remembered the Russian electrical engineer who gave me an old Russian (Soviet era? not sure) text on linear electrical circuits while I was in CAMH (Toronto). He was a patient there too. I don't think he knew that I couldn't read Russian... He was homeless, and was helping me pass the time the way he would. I still have that book with me today. I hope you're all okay, wherever you are. I believe in you, because I believe in the power of the human spirit. We are driven by more than survival.
roberttod 7y ago
I love the idea of a 4 hour day, but it seems to be something that can only be obtained by going freelance, consulting etc. I wonder if a company could offer a stable income at a decent rate, but for only 4 hour days or 4 day weeks, or have a mandatory 60 days vacation policy. I'd be curious if such an offer would draw the best people from the talent pool?
- njarboe 7y ago
  Seems to me that working 40-50 hours a week for 10-15 years at high pay is a more reasonable situation. Then have a big enough nest egg to do what you like, a la mrmoneymustache.
  - JoeSamoa 7y ago
    Except life is now and cancer sucks. Also assumes you were able to achieve a high paying career and not some dead end job that only pays enough to keep you alive.
  - ljw1001 7y ago
    the problem is that it's never enough. One day you have kids and your expenses go way up, another day you buy a bigger house with a bigger mortgage, next thing you know 15 years is 40.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > ...can only be obtained by going freelance Think bigger. How do you think we got our 40 hour workweek?
  - throwaway_1635 7y ago
    I propose working only for half a year. More inline with humanity roots. This also will rise price of labor so rich clueless speculators won't have resources to waste other people lives on futile endeavours, will incentivise more automation, sharing(think OSS) and less burocracy without social disorder from people losing "jobs".
foobar_ 7y ago
I think 4 day work week would be great to try out for a whole country. Also reduces pollution now that I think about it.
- perfunctory 7y ago
  > Also reduces pollution now that I think about it. Indeed. Somebody did research on this: http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-workshare-2013-02.pdf http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-worksh...
- McWobbleston 7y ago
  Not to mention with how much productivity has climbed while wages stagnated we fairly should only be working 4 day weeks.
- throwaway_1635 7y ago
  This or simply more vacation( I would prefer more vacation but it's probably harder to implement). My controversial opinion is that half of the work is unnecessary (there's surplus of labor that has many negative consequenes for society at large - in short a lot of effort is pointless/missdirected as competition due to surplus locks many people in slavery(serving others more than themselves)). It could be easily solved by people working simply half of a year. Lack of monopoly(all year round) on certain roles would benefit most enterprises and people would have time for exploration/education. My hope is that external pressure such as rising asia will give some room for such progresive ideas in the west. They might even end up more competitive in a world that rewards creativity(derivarive of leisure) and education. Can only hope as we will get war instead.
underdeserver 7y ago
Expression of the day: "topsy-turvy"
jhoechtl 7y ago
This writing reminds me of Keynes who predicted in rhe 1930 that a 15 hour work-week will be our future and many will suffer from boredom. This as well as Russels musings didn't come true. I blame marketing for inducing needs we wouldn't have otherwise and the internet economy which prolongs an otherwise unsustainable lending system in that goods can be traded which need not be made of tangible ressources.
- tim333 7y ago
  There's also that people quite like working on the whole. I mean you've got about 112 waking hours per week and if you only spend 15 working you've got a lot left to fill with TV, HN or whatever.

213 points by EndXA 7y ago

Numerous previous discussions, for those interested: 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6513765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6513765 2014: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9015092 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9015092 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10310846 Just a selection, 38 in total.

dang 7y ago
Also 2016: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10876730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10876730 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1187681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1187681
- Chinjut 7y ago
  Looks like this is an idea that resonates with people here! A cheering antidote to many other "Sell your whole life away working and working on businessy nonsense to make rich people richer and maybe, maybe get rich yourself" strains of posts popular here. [On edit: Oh, just noticed this comment itself duplicates https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21510442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21510442]
  - hliyan 7y ago
    I'm reminded of the saying, "Only the hungry man knows the taste of bread." Many of us in HN are used to working long and arduous hours, and we've also been told that it's a virtue to do so. To me it's no wonder the subject resonates.

melling 7y ago

Here’s another source if you hit the paywall: http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

hirundo 7y ago

> I think that there is far too much work done in the world, that immense harm is caused by the belief that work is virtuous ... That's a privileged position. I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger, via a father that grew up in the depression. They would both be known as workaholics in this age, as they frequently, or usually, worked from pre dawn to post dusk for the necessities. My father stood in awe of his father's capacity for work, and I'm in awe of my father's. My own child, if I had one, would be less impressed with his father's work ethic, as I also grew up in a privileged position, without poverty or hunger, due to my father's work. It would be better for a child to inherit my father's work ethic than mine. Not for any virtue other than its capacity to promote thriving and survival in an unstable future.

andrei_says_ 7y ago
> I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger... I am not sure who these virtues serve in an economy maximizing extraction from the people contributing the work. The working class will always be pushed as much as possible, to the point of breaking, with no benefit to the workers themselves. > It would be better for a child to inherit my father's work ethic than mine. It may be good for them, but only if they work in a scenario where the work adds value for them. Currently someone who knows to define boundaries and not destroy their own life and health in order to let more be extracted from their effort, is a better option.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  > > I benefited from a work ethic of a grandfather that knew poverty and hunger... > I am not sure who these virtues serve in an economy maximizing extraction from the people contributing the work. The working class will always be pushed as much as possible, to the point of breaking, with no benefit to the workers themselves. I call a bit of baloney on the last quoted sentence. You are significantly overstating your case. (You have one, but you're overstating it.) Still you have a bit of a point, from the point of view of the workers as a class. From the point of view of an individual worker and his/her family, though, hard work leaves them better off than they would be in the absence of the hard work. That leaves the worker and the family in a better position then they otherwise would be. Hence, "I benefited..."

keyle 7y ago

It's amazing how often this comes up on HN. Clearly this touches a lot of people that read this site... A reminder to listen to your body, and that you can't exhale without inhaling first.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

diminoten 7y ago

Reminds me a bit of this chess article from 1849: https://books.google.com/books?id=90hGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22a+pernicious+excitement+to+learn+and+play%22&pg=PA9&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=90hGAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22a+perni...

lordleft 7y ago

One of my favorite facts about Bertrand Russell is that he invented type theory in the context of math, and in that way contributed indirectly to computer science.

amilein7minutes 7y ago

Bertand Russell, ahead of his time in his socio-political musings, as with foundations of mathematics. Although the essay begins as though he is advocating for leisure for some privileged section of the society -- and one might especially suspect his position is thus given he himself was part of the old aristocracy by birth -- he explains not only that idleness being a collective right will elevate the society but also that it can be achieved. The time to have achieved it, in my opinion, has already passed and yet we continue to be "foolish", as he puts it. His argument is so cogent that the following lines seem completely within reach for the society and paint the idea of paradise" >>> In a world where no one is compelled to work more than four hours a day every person possessed of scientific curiosity will be able to indulge it, and every painter will be able to paint without starving, however excellent his pictures may be. Young writers will not be obliged to draw attention to themselves by sensational pot-boilers, with a view to acquiring the economic independence needed for monumental works, for which, when the time at last comes, they will have lost the taste and the capacity. Men who in their professional work have become interested in some phase of economics or government will be able to develop their ideas without the academic detachment that makes the work of university economists lacking in reality. Medical men will have time to learn about the progress of medicine. Teachers will not be exasperatedly struggling to teach by routine things which they learned in their youth, which may, in the interval, have been proved to be untrue.

_mul0 7y ago
Personal anecdote: was going through a tough time in my life (early 20s), and was hating my major in school, dealing with a failed relationship, feeling like my peers outclassed me in every aspect, etc. Was suicidal. Spent some time in mental health facilities (urban Canada, free and open access for citizens). Surprised to see the diversity in the homeless/low-income population (which makes up a significant chunk of the population in mental health facilities). Former aerospace engineers, electrical engineers, teachers...and of course, students (like myself). My mental health is another story, not relevant to the topic at hand. The mental health facilities where I had to spend time are relevant though: some of them didn't allow devices (privacy concerns for others in the facility), and there was a lot of time to kill. Time was spent ruminating, reading, and writing (yay for the public library). Incredibly productive, in large part because given where I was, I felt so far gone, that I no longer needed to worry about what I was doing/how well I was doing it/what I should be doing, etc. I had already failed in all those judgements/metrics. Now, nothing to do, but to do. Coming out of facilities, started to get caught up in old life (getting job offer from internship firm). Could no longer tolerate it. Was ballsy, having just literally faced death, and simply walked out of work. Ballsy because I was literally throwing away my future. How would I earn money? Ended up bunking with my parents. That's one edge I had even when I was in the mental health facilities. Most of those homeless people I mentioned? Homeless because of lack of family support. Sat down at home. Reached out to professors doing work in the sort of things I felt genuinely interested in. The rest has been reasonably productive history, with more on the way. Point of this anecdote: the value of leisure time is something I feel very strongly about. It's what helped liberate me, and I only had it because of privilege (parents). I find it rather sad that there are so many people that disagree with arguments along the lines of "people are motivated by money, if they didn't have to work for money, they wouldn't do anything with their time". And judgementalism regarding low-income/disabled/homeless individuals. Heard this from a PhD student at uni, when I was telling him about how I always worry I might end up homeless some day: "Don't worry, you won't end up homeless. Everyone here (i.e. including me) is too smart/valuable to end up homeless." Couldn't help but laugh (internally). Remembered the Russian electrical engineer who gave me an old Russian (Soviet era? not sure) text on linear electrical circuits while I was in CAMH (Toronto). He was a patient there too. I don't think he knew that I couldn't read Russian... He was homeless, and was helping me pass the time the way he would. I still have that book with me today. I hope you're all okay, wherever you are. I believe in you, because I believe in the power of the human spirit. We are driven by more than survival.

roberttod 7y ago

I love the idea of a 4 hour day, but it seems to be something that can only be obtained by going freelance, consulting etc. I wonder if a company could offer a stable income at a decent rate, but for only 4 hour days or 4 day weeks, or have a mandatory 60 days vacation policy. I'd be curious if such an offer would draw the best people from the talent pool?

njarboe 7y ago
Seems to me that working 40-50 hours a week for 10-15 years at high pay is a more reasonable situation. Then have a big enough nest egg to do what you like, a la mrmoneymustache.
- JoeSamoa 7y ago
  Except life is now and cancer sucks. Also assumes you were able to achieve a high paying career and not some dead end job that only pays enough to keep you alive.
- ljw1001 7y ago
  the problem is that it's never enough. One day you have kids and your expenses go way up, another day you buy a bigger house with a bigger mortgage, next thing you know 15 years is 40.
perfunctory 7y ago
> ...can only be obtained by going freelance Think bigger. How do you think we got our 40 hour workweek?
- throwaway_1635 7y ago
  I propose working only for half a year. More inline with humanity roots. This also will rise price of labor so rich clueless speculators won't have resources to waste other people lives on futile endeavours, will incentivise more automation, sharing(think OSS) and less burocracy without social disorder from people losing "jobs".

foobar_ 7y ago

I think 4 day work week would be great to try out for a whole country. Also reduces pollution now that I think about it.

perfunctory 7y ago
> Also reduces pollution now that I think about it. Indeed. Somebody did research on this: http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-workshare-2013-02.pdf http://cepr.net/documents/publications/climate-change-worksh...
McWobbleston 7y ago
Not to mention with how much productivity has climbed while wages stagnated we fairly should only be working 4 day weeks.
throwaway_1635 7y ago
This or simply more vacation( I would prefer more vacation but it's probably harder to implement). My controversial opinion is that half of the work is unnecessary (there's surplus of labor that has many negative consequenes for society at large - in short a lot of effort is pointless/missdirected as competition due to surplus locks many people in slavery(serving others more than themselves)). It could be easily solved by people working simply half of a year. Lack of monopoly(all year round) on certain roles would benefit most enterprises and people would have time for exploration/education. My hope is that external pressure such as rising asia will give some room for such progresive ideas in the west. They might even end up more competitive in a world that rewards creativity(derivarive of leisure) and education. Can only hope as we will get war instead.

underdeserver 7y ago

Expression of the day: "topsy-turvy"

jhoechtl 7y ago

This writing reminds me of Keynes who predicted in rhe 1930 that a 15 hour work-week will be our future and many will suffer from boredom. This as well as Russels musings didn't come true. I blame marketing for inducing needs we wouldn't have otherwise and the internet economy which prolongs an otherwise unsustainable lending system in that goods can be traded which need not be made of tangible ressources.

tim333 7y ago
There's also that people quite like working on the whole. I mean you've got about 112 waking hours per week and if you only spend 15 working you've got a lot left to fill with TV, HN or whatever.